1. Pay for shipping to an heir? 2. Joint account question.

[Maarkr]

The will has the property split 60/40 to two heirs. The only property is household goods, some antiques. One heir wants items shipped to them for a cost of $750. The assets are worth maybe $1500 total if we are lucky. The money isn't there for such an expense. Do I tell them they must pay for the shipping?
There is money in a checking account, but the deceased had that put in a joint account with one of the heirs, so technically this is now the sole property of that heir and not part of the estate for probate?

 

[Zigner]

The will has the property split 60/40 to two heirs. The only property is household goods, some antiques. One heir wants items shipped to them for a cost of $750. The assets are worth maybe $1500 total if we are lucky. The money isn't there for such an expense. Do I tell them they must pay for the shipping?
There is money in a checking account, but the deceased had that put in a joint account with one of the heirs, so technically this is now the sole property of that heir and not part of the estate for probate?

What US state?

Generally, in the US, I would tell the heir that the items are as-is/where-is. The heir would be responsible for shipping.
Generally, in the US, assuming that the account was not titled in some weird way, your final statement (not a question) is correct.

 

[Maarkr]

thanks... Maine

 

[adjusterjack]

Please keep ALL of your estate questions to this thread. The other one will be deleted as a duplicate.

Your questions from that thread:

My mil from Maine has a will dividing the personal property 60/40. I am executor. This is furniture and antiques, value maybe $1500 ttl. A week before she passed, she made a list of items with her hospice social worker and signed it, saying who should get what. Is it correct for me to treat this document as giving property away before death and not part of the estate?

No. Not correct.

So it is a document that I should ignore and inventory all assets for probate?

The assets are part of the estate but you don't necessarily have to ignore the document. You and the heirs can agree to respect the wishes of the deceased and distribute according to the list. If there is going to be hostility over it, you have the authority (as executor) to sell everything, use the case to pay debts of the deceased, and distribute the rest in accordance with the will.

 

[Maarkr]

thank you...

 

[zddoodah]

My mil from Maine has a will dividing the personal property 60/40. I am executor. This is furniture and antiques, value maybe $1500 ttl. A week before she passed, she made a list of items with her hospice social worker and signed it, saying who should get what. Is it correct for me to treat this document as giving property away before death and not part of the estate?

No. Not correct.

Given that we do not have the exact language of his document, I disagree with the negative answer. We can't possibly be sure without the exact language.

Also, it's worth pointing out that you are not the executor unless you have been appointed by the probate court to act in that capacity. Has that actually happened? While it may be that the estate is so small as to not be worth probating, that doesn't change the fact that a person is not executor without being appointed by the court.

I agree with Zigner as to the questions asked in this thread.

 

[Maarkr]

ans. the paper is only a list of 20 items or so with a name associated with whom she wants to have that item, and her signature at the bottom. It is not part of the will. I am listed in her will as the executor, but she is 'close to passing' but has not died yet, so I plan to be the executor after I file and get approved in the near future. I do not know how the Covid-19 restrictions will play in getting this done, but I have talked with the local probate office who said I can file online after she passes and send the signed will to the court address when directed by the court.

 

[LdiJ]

The will has the property split 60/40 to two heirs. The only property is household goods, some antiques. One heir wants items shipped to them for a cost of $750. The assets are worth maybe $1500 total if we are lucky. The money isn't there for such an expense. Do I tell them they must pay for the shipping?

I don't know any requirement that an heir can demand that an estate pay to ship their inheritance to them, particularly if the estate has no money with which to do so. Does the will bequeath that heir specific items, or does the will simply say that the assets are split 50/50?

There is money in a checking account, but the deceased had that put in a joint account with one of the heirs, so technically this is now the sole property of that heir and not part of the estate for probate?

Yes, that money would belong to the joint account holder and would not be part of the estate for probate.

 

[t74]

Is it that the person has not passed yet or is no longer with us?

Were there any shenanigans involved getting or questions about how the second person added to the elderly person's account? If so, the actions should be made known to adult protective services for investigation before the person dies. If the account was originally only the elderly person's, why was the second person added as co-owner rather than signatory if the intent was to permit the second person to pay the elderly person's expenses.Many people are of the belief that one must be an owner on the account to have access to the funds. (I ask because the adding of a co-owner to accounts was used to steal hundred of thousands from an incompetent elderly person by them signing a document they could not possibly understand adding the second person to the account. Since it was not discovered until after the person's death, nothing could be done.)

Since items in a person's estate should be sold to pay debts, is the question about gifting the property prior to death how to get the property out of the estate to protect it from creditors?

I am extremely uncomfortable with what is happening/happened to this obviously very ill person if they were in hospice. The positive in the case is that the person assisting the elderly person was not a family member.

Remember that the executor's responsibility is to deal with beneficiaries equittably as specified in the will; this is especially ssignificant if the executor is also one of the beneficiaries. IMO, while not legally required, gifts immediately before death should be part of the distribution specified by the will in order to prevent hard feelings. Look carefully to see if the will specifies that the estate is to be divided ONLY after death; if that is the case, it is best to tall everyone that they ahve to wait until the estate is settled and agreement has been reached. I get the feeling from the questions that there is the belief by the distant beneficiary that the executor /executor to be is not being fair or is unduly influencing the elderly person.

Remember that how this is handled will affect your future relationship with the other beneficiary.

 

[LdiJ]

Is it that the person has not passed yet or is no longer with us?

Were there any shenanigans involved getting or questions about how the second person added to the elderly person's account? If so, the actions should be made known to adult protective services for investigation before the person dies. If the account was originally only the elderly person's, why was the second person added as co-owner rather than signatory if the intent was to permit the second person to pay the elderly person's expenses.Many people are of the belief that one must be an owner on the account to have access to the funds. (I ask because the adding of a co-owner to accounts was used to steal hundred of thousands from an incompetent elderly person by them signing a document they could not possibly understand adding the second person to the account. Since it was not discovered until after the person's death, nothing could be done.)

Since items in a person's estate should be sold to pay debts, is the question about gifting the property prior to death how to get the property out of the estate to protect it from creditors?

I am extremely uncomfortable with what is happening/happened to this obviously very ill person if they were in hospice. The positive in the case is that the person assisting the elderly person was not a family member.

Remember that the executor's responsibility is to deal with beneficiaries equittably as specified in the will; this is especially ssignificant if the executor is also one of the beneficiaries. IMO, while not legally required, gifts immediately before death should be part of the distribution specified by the will in order to prevent hard feelings. Look carefully to see if the will specifies that the estate is to be divided ONLY after death; if that is the case, it is best to tall everyone that they ahve to wait until the estate is settled and agreement has been reached. I get the feeling from the questions that there is the belief by the distant beneficiary that the executor /executor to be is not being fair or is unduly influencing the elderly person.

Remember that how this is handled will affect your future relationship with the other beneficiary.

My mother put me on one of her accounts as co-owner so that I would be able to pay bills if she needed me to, but also so that there would be immediate money available after she passes, to pay her final expenses. That is not at all uncommon for families to do.

 

[Maarkr]

the info I discussed above is from a will drafted and properly signed a few years ago by a respected attorney, so there's nothing hinky going on. The person is in the final stage of dying under hospice care at home. I have been her financial manager for years and is listed as the executor, so I anticipate being approved upon filing with the court. The list of items and to whom they should go after her death was an idea drawn up by her hospice social worker. If I should wait until her death to ask these questions, then tell me.

Another question: She had a previous will drafted and signed that dissolved a trust and included a separate notarized document that gave one of her daughters ownership of all personal property. The document describes the property in general and ends the paragraph saying 'in accordance with the terms of the trust'. The latest will states that all prior wills are revoked, splitting property like I stated 60/40 between two heirs . Is the older separate document valid at all, since it was drafted to avoid any property going thru probate?
Like I said above, we're only talking $2000 in property so it would cost me almost that much to hire an attorney. The only difference is if her daughter owns it (from the previous document) , she could distribute it per the wishes of the decedents' recently drafted property list. She made these documents years ago on advice from her attorney to avoid probate, so if the older document is valid, then I can file and avoid probate since she won't have any assets.

 

[Zigner]

What is the value of the entire estate?

 

[t74]

LdiJ,

In our family the person placed on the accounts (one valued at over $200K) used the parents' funds to do home improvements and kept the residual rather than distributing it according to the original distribution pre-change. The person placed on the account gifted to charities without regard to the Medicaid look back consequences, refused to prepay funeral and burial expenses, paid household expenses when the elderly person did not live in the household, etc.

That person already had POA and signature authority on the account. This action also gave the second person's POA access to the account via the POA. This was done contrary to

On the other side of the family, a living trust solved the after death bill problem. BTW, beneficiaries had the resources to advance the estate the funds to pay the bills while the estate was being settled. The estate also had incoming funds that would/should have gone to an estate account that were sufficient to pay the bills coming in after death. There were also insurance policies that should have been used for immidiate after death expenses. The original plan was well conceived by an experienced, financially astute person who happened to predecease the elderly person in question. That person had left very detailed instructions as to the use of the accounts which was not followed by the person holding the checkbook.

While it may be a common practice, it does not protect the original account owner or their desired beneficiaries if the person placed on the account is dishonest - or just plain irresponsible and using the elderly person's funds to live beyond their means.

 

[Maarkr]

What is the value of the entire estate?

like I said above, only abt $2000 in furnishings, antiques, trinkets. Everything else was disposed of years ago to avoid having anything of much value for probate.

 

[t74]

the info I discussed above is from a will drafted and properly signed a few years ago by a respected attorney, so there's nothing hinky going on. The person is in the final stage of dying under hospice care at home. I have been her financial manager for years and is listed as the executor, so I anticipate being approved upon filing with the court. The list of items and to whom they should go after her death was an idea drawn up by her hospice social worker. If I should wait until her death to ask these questions, then tell me.

Another question: She had a previous will drafted and signed that dissolved a trust and included a separate notarized document that gave one of her daughters ownership of all personal property. The document describes the property in general and ends the paragraph saying 'in accordance with the terms of the trust'. The latest will states that all prior wills are revoked, splitting property like I stated 60/40 between two heirs . Is the older separate document valid at all, since it was drafted to avoid any property going thru probate?
Like I said above, we're only talking $2000 in property so it would cost me almost that much to hire an attorney. The only difference is if her daughter owns it (from the previous document) , she could distribute it per the wishes of the decedents' recently drafted property list. She made these documents years ago on advice from her attorney to avoid probate, so if the older document is valid, then I can file and avoid probate since she won't have any assets.

IIWY, I would spend the money for a brief consultation with an attorney. You could also decline to serve and let someone else try to make everyone happy. - or wait for Taxing Matters who is extremely helpful!

Also, my caution is for the benefit of people reading the thread in the future. Some visitors to the forum look at previous threads for situations similar to their own and based on my personal experience dealing with a very troubling set of circumstances.

You are obviousl;y trying to honor the person's wishes. Good luck with the other beneficiary. It should not be as difficult as it is to settle an estate!