1. Pay for shipping to an heir? 2. Joint account question.

[LdiJ]

LdiJ,

In our family the person placed on the accounts (one valued at over $200K) used the parents' funds to do home improvements and kept the residual rather than distributing it according to the original distribution pre-change. The person placed on the account gifted to charities without regard to the Medicaid look back consequences, refused to prepay funeral and burial expenses, paid household expenses when the elderly person did not live in the household, etc.

That person already had POA and signature authority on the account. This action also gave the second person's POA access to the account via the POA. This was done contrary to

On the other side of the family, a living trust solved the after death bill problem. BTW, beneficiaries had the resources to advance the estate the funds to pay the bills while the estate was being settled. The estate also had incoming funds that would/should have gone to an estate account that were sufficient to pay the bills coming in after death. There were also insurance policies that should have been used for immidiate after death expenses. The original plan was well conceived by an experienced, financially astute person who happened to predecease the elderly person in question. That person had left very detailed instructions as to the use of the accounts which was not followed by the person holding the checkbook.

While it may be a common practice, it does not protect the original account owner or their desired beneficiaries if the person placed on the account is dishonest - or just plain irresponsible and using the elderly person's funds to live beyond their means.

My mom wanted to avoid probate at all costs and had all 4 of us as beneficiaries on everything including a TOD deed on her house. When I pointed out that getting all 4 of us to chip in to pay her funeral costs and the bills at her house, she open the account I am on and put enough in there to cover those things. Yes, I could be dishonest and keep that money for myself, but I would never, ever do something like that and she knows it.

 

[Zigner]

If the total value of the estate is under $20k, then you can utilize the small estate process in Maine. Google it.

 

[t74]

My mom wanted to avoid probate at all costs and had all 4 of us as beneficiaries on everything including a TOD deed on her house. When I pointed out that getting all 4 of us to chip in to pay her funeral costs and the bills at her house, she open the account I am on and put enough in there to cover those things. Yes, I could be dishonest and keep that money for myself, but I would never, ever do something like that and she knows it.

I don't think parents and certainly not the other beneficiaries expected what happened to occur. You never know what a person may do when they come under the influence of a dishonest significant other and/or friends or have financial difficulties or begin having mental problems or get involves with a religious cult or ... I have a number of 65+ single family members whose behavior is so irresponsible that I suspect they are in the early stages of dementia; they are placing themselves in unsafe environments and at great financial risk for their futures. They are not so incompetent that they must have a guardian; by the time they get to that stage, they will be destitute and will have alienated the younger family members who rightfully have become frustrated dealing with irrational and obnoxious elders. Even some of the junior family members are totally oblivious to responsible financial management and planning/saving for their futures.

I think one of the important decisions if a person wants to do what your mother did, is to make sure the responsible individual has shown good judgment in their personal and financial decisions and is independent of outside influences. If the responsible person consistently has financial problems, there might be the temptation to "borrow" from the elderly person.

Why do you not prepay the funeral costs? It is one thing you can do and still qualify for Medicaid if necessary. With the cost of long term care, planning for needing Medicaid for all but the very wealthy should be considered.

I am also very much in favor of a person making their own decisions about their funeral/memorial service if they even want one and their obituary. Our family did not do this and the person who ended up making most of the arrangements went overboard on the flowers, etc. The funeral ended up costing about 3 times what was planned for. As a note, that person then complained about how much they got from the estate.

Actually, the best advice ever came from FIL who saaid "Beiong of sound mind, I spent it all."

 

[LdiJ]

I don't think parents and certainly not the other beneficiaries expected what happened to occur. You never know what a person may do when they come under the influence of a dishonest significant other and/or friends or have financial difficulties or begin having mental problems or get involves with a religious cult or ... I have a number of 65+ single family members whose behavior is so irresponsible that I suspect they are in the early stages of dementia; they are placing themselves in unsafe environments and at great financial risk for their futures. They are not so incompetent that they must have a guardian; by the time they get to that stage, they will be destitute and will have alienated the younger family members who rightfully have become frustrated dealing with irrational and obnoxious elders. Even some of the junior family members are totally oblivious to responsible financial management and planning/saving for their futures.

I think one of the important decisions if a person wants to do what your mother did, is to make sure the responsible individual has shown good judgment in their personal and financial decisions and is independent of outside influences. If the responsible person consistently has financial problems, there might be the temptation to "borrow" from the elderly person.

Why do you not prepay the funeral costs? It is one thing you can do and still qualify for Medicaid if necessary. With the cost of long term care, planning for needing Medicaid for all but the very wealthy should be considered.

I am also very much in favor of a person making their own decisions about their funeral/memorial service if they even want one and their obituary. Our family did not do this and the person who ended up making most of the arrangements went overboard on the flowers, etc. The funeral ended up costing about 3 times what was planned for. As a note, that person then complained about how much they got from the estate.

Actually, the best advice ever came from FIL who saaid "Beiong of sound mind, I spent it all."

I know that you mean well, but sometimes you are just a little too opinionated about people's choices. Just because people make choices that are different than you would make, doesn't make their choices wrong. I am not going to continue to defend my family's choices to you, so lets just agree to disagree and end this part of the discussion.

 

[t74]

I know that you mean well, but sometimes you are just a little too opinionated about people's choices. Just because people make choices that are different than you would make, doesn't make their choices wrong. I am not going to continue to defend my family's choices to you, so lets just agree to disagree and end this part of the discussion.

What I would really like is a suggestion on how to forestall this problem. For example, if a person is truly incompetent and is removed from their financial responsibilities should it take two signatures to pay the bills such that there are checks and balances?

We certainly can disagree, but people looking to make plans need to be aware of the problems others have encountered and potential solutions so they can mix and match for their specific situation. As I have been responsible for care of and planning for elderly and disabled family members, I have become aware of how little I know and how difficult things become when
other family members disagree or behave in a questionable manner. The question then become, do you have a backup plan if you cannot serve? It is a concern if the person in yur care is incompetent and were unable to name a successor.

Of all the professionals in law, finance, real estate, etc. that I have had to deal with in my many years (remember I am older than dirt). estate/family law attorneys have been by far the worst experience (while real estate attorneys have been the best!). I have found the discussions on this forum to be most informative.

 

[LdiJ]

What I would really like is a suggestion on how to forestall this problem. For example, if a person is truly incompetent and is removed from their financial responsibilities should it take two signatures to pay the bills such that there are checks and balances?

I think that two signatures is too cumbersome when trying to get ordinary bills paid. It might not be a huge problem if the two people live close to each other, and might be very little of a problem if they are in the same household, but if they are in the same household, they could conspire to their household's benefit.

We certainly can disagree, but people looking to make plans need to be aware of the problems others have encountered and potential solutions so they can mix and match for their specific situation. As I have been responsible for care of and planning for elderly and disabled family members, I have become aware of how little I know and how difficult things become when
other family members disagree or behave in a questionable manner. The question then become, do you have a backup plan if you cannot serve? It is a concern if the person in your care is incompetent and were unable to name a successor.

No matter how well estate planning is done, there is often one or more family members that turn the process into drama and problems. No matter how well the planning is done, that is always going to happen.

Of all the professionals in law, finance, real estate, etc. that I have had to deal with in my many years (remember I am older than dirt). estate/family law attorneys have been by far the worst experience (while real estate attorneys have been the best!). I have found the discussions on this forum to be most informative.

I really haven't had any bad experiences with any attorneys in their professional capacities. However, I have known or know of some attorneys out in the real world who are real jerks.

The main thing that I was trying to convey to you is you don't really throw out suggestions. Your wording comes across as if your way is the only way it should ever be done. (and I am not just limiting myself to this thread) You might consider including some qualifying words into your vocabulary. You offended me a little because it appeared to be saying that my mother wasn't a good enough judge of character to determine how things should be done for our family...that you knew better than we did what was best for us.

 

[t74]

I think that two signatures is too cumbersome when trying to get ordinary bills paid. It might not be a huge problem if the two people live close to each other, and might be very little of a problem if they are in the same household, but if they are in the same household, they could conspire to their household's benefit.



No matter how well estate planning is done, there is often one or more family members that turn the process into drama and problems. No matter how well the planning is done, that is always going to happen.



I really haven't had any bad experiences with any attorneys in their professional capacities. However, I have known or know of some attorneys out in the real world who are real jerks.

The main thing that I was trying to convey to you is you don't really throw out suggestions. Your wording comes across as if your way is the only way it should ever be done. (and I am not just limiting myself to this thread) You might consider including some qualifying words into your vocabulary. You offended me a little because it appeared to be saying that my mother wasn't a good enough judge of character to determine how things should be done for our family...that you knew better than we did what was best for us.

LdiJ,

I am sorry you mistook my intentions. With luck your mother will remain competent all of her life and you will not be hit by a bus or have a stroke.

Having watched parents decline with senile dementia and have the responsibility not only to care for them physically but also to protect them from expoitation and abuse, I am very cynical and overprotective. There are definitely times I should have been more assertive and not trusted others to act morally and legally.

Give yourself 15 or 20 years and watch your contemporaries make questionable decisions and not be able to convince them of the danger they are placing themselves in. I am currently figuratively watching a ship sine, a train wreck, and a multicar crash on the freeway with one family member showing the early stages of dementia, another involving a person met only months ago on social media into the financial picture - including changing the will, and an elderly woman being placed in physical danger with street people - including teenage males - moved into her home by her church. All of these are in addition to my other challenges.

 

[LdiJ]

LdiJ,

I am sorry you mistook my intentions. With luck your mother will remain competent all of her life and you will not be hit by a bus or have a stroke.

Having watched parents decline with senile dementia and have the responsibility not only to care for them physically but also to protect them from expoitation and abuse, I am very cynical and overprotective. There are definitely times I should have been more assertive and not trusted others to act morally and legally.

Give yourself 15 or 20 years and watch your contemporaries make questionable decisions and not be able to convince them of the danger they are placing themselves in. I am currently figuratively watching a ship sine, a train wreck, and a multicar crash on the freeway with one family member showing the early stages of dementia, another involving a person met only months ago on social media into the financial picture - including changing the will, and an elderly woman being placed in physical danger with street people - including teenage males - moved into her home by her church. All of these are in addition to my other challenges.

I sympathize with the challenges you are dealing with.