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I got curbstoned, or something like it (Arizona)

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TommyT

Junior Member
This is not my finest moment. It happened so fast, this is my first time buying a car on my own, but no excuses. I don't know yet whether I have a lemon - but here's my story:

I've been without a car for a few weeks. I have an old car that I recently had towed to a storage unit - it was not running, no obvious diagnosis, I was reluctant to put more money into it because it has no resale value. The plan was to buy a new car, then figure out what to do with my existing car.

I responded to a Craigslist ad yesterday. Nice looking car. Below KBB value by 25% (assuming Good condition). It's the type of car that would typically sell quick. It was pictured in front of a residence. Nothing sketchy about the ad. I set up a time to see it. Communication via text message.

Seller proposes we meet at a McDonalds. Location was convenient for me. I checked the car out, drove it, it drove well. Seller says he is selling because he just bought a new truck. The dealer offered to give him a trade in offer - but obviously only suckers do trade-ins.

There were small things that seemed off. Temp license plate, corner lamp assembly missing ($20 fix, why wouldn't he want to fix it), windshield washer fluid compartment was torn up - I don't care about the windshield washer fluid, but that went against the well cared for image I had been given.

I would have normally insisted on having the car checked out independently. But it drove well, I needed a car, the price was such that I figured worst case, I could drive the new car temporarily and then re-sell it. Seller had other calls, I don't expect the car the car to available for so long. Seller agreed to an honor system, would work with me if I found out there were any big repairs needed (but mechanics are out to make money he cautions and he won't be concerned with minor stuff). I was nervous, and deep down I knew something was off. But...

I gave in. Got cash. We drove to a third-party MVD next to McDonalds. Everything was easy. I was a little surprised when I found out the title had been in the name of a used car dealership (or otherwise an LLC). I asked the seller about that, he says a family member has a commercial license. I was slightly relived b/c if this was a commercial sale, I would be protected by Lemon Laws. We shake hands. He doesn't need a ride anywhere; said his cousin lived across the street.

I had a sinking feeling, and eventually Googled the seller's phone number. The seller's phone number linked to a Yelp page for a used car dealership - located across the street from the McDonalds where we met. I looked him up on FB - his profile says he owns the lot and there is at least one post referencing "his dealership."

I did text him to let him know I knew what was up, I asked him whether I bought from a dealer or a private party. He says, yeah he's dealer affiliated but he had been driving this car for awhile and it was a private sale; says he paid my sales tax and stuff for me, inferring he did me a favor (luckily I can screenshot this, it infers he could have sold as a dealer but instead chose not to). We're still talking a little back and forth. Don't know how it will end up...

I'm not sure yet that I got a lemon, the car runs ok for now, I will have it checked out thoroughly if the seller will not refund (and I expect to possibly find out that superficial repairs had been done to a not so well maintained car that is costly to repair). The title had been in the dealership's name and not the seller's name - so I am not sure that it can still count as a private sale?

I hope to resolve this situation without an attorney. Anybody have insight? thx
 
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This is not my finest moment. It happened so fast, this is my first time buying a car on my own, but no excuses. I don't know yet whether I have a lemon - but here's my story:

I've been without a car for a few weeks. I have an old car that I recently had towed to a storage unit - it was not running, no obvious diagnosis, I was reluctant to put more money into it because it has no resale value. The plan was to buy a new car, then figure out what to do with my existing car.

I responded to a Craigslist ad yesterday. Nice looking car. Below KBB value by 25% (assuming Good condition). It's the type of car that would typically sell quick. It was pictured in front of a residence. Nothing sketchy about the ad. I set up a time to see it. Communication via text message.

Seller proposes we meet at a McDonalds. Location was convenient for me. I checked the car out, drove it, it drove well. Seller says he is selling because he just bought a new truck. The dealer offered to give him a trade in offer - but obviously only suckers do trade-ins.

There were small things that seemed off. Temp license plate, corner lamp assembly missing ($20 fix, why wouldn't he want to fix it), windshield washer fluid compartment was torn up - I don't care about the windshield washer fluid, but that went against the well cared for image I had been given.

I would have normally insisted on having the car checked out independently. But it drove well, I needed a car, the price was such that I figured worst case, I could drive the new car temporarily and then re-sell it. Seller had other calls, I don't expect the car the car to available for so long. Seller agreed to an honor system, would work with me if I found out there were any big repairs needed (but mechanics are out to make money he cautions and he won't be concerned with minor stuff). I was nervous, and deep down I knew something was off. But...

I gave in. Got cash. We drove to a third-party MVD next to McDonalds. Everything was easy. I was a little surprised when I found out the title had been in the name of a used car dealership (or otherwise an LLC). I asked the seller about that, he says a family member has a commercial license. I was slightly relived b/c if this was a commercial sale, I would be protected by Lemon Laws. We shake hands. He doesn't need a ride anywhere; said his cousin lived across the street.

I had a sinking feeling, and eventually Googled the seller's phone number. The seller's phone number linked to a Yelp page for a used car dealership - located across the street from the McDonalds where we met. I looked him up on FB - his profile says he owns the lot and there is at least one post referencing "his dealership."

I did text him to let him know I knew what was up, I asked him whether I bought from a dealer or a private party. He says, yeah he's dealer affiliated but he had been driving this car for awhile and it was a private sale; says he paid my sales tax and stuff for me, inferring he did me a favor (luckily I can screenshot this, it infers he could have sold as a dealer but instead chose not to). We're still talking a little back and forth. Don't know how it will end up...

I'm not sure yet that I got a lemon, the car runs ok for now, I will have it checked out thoroughly if the seller will not refund (and I expect to possibly find out that superficial repairs had been done to a not so well maintained car that is costly to repair). The title had been in the dealership's name and not the seller's name - so I am not sure that it can still count as a private sale?


The Arizona Used Car Lemon Law protects a buyer who purchases a car or truck from a licensed dealer, not a private-party transaction. Arizona prohibits the display for sale of any motor vehicle on any public street, lot or other public property Apr 13, 2015
I hope to resolve this situation without an attorney. Anybody have insight? thx
Hears the law, and some insight

I predict in the future you won't be so inclined to ignore those "little things," as a first time buyer for a car, a house, a marriage and an assortment of life's firsts.
I ignored all the signs and have paid dearly for it.
Next time ask someone with some experience in those matters for insight.

.._____________________________
~
There are three kinds of people.
There are the ones who learn by reading.
The few who learn by observation.
...and then there are those who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
 

TommyT

Junior Member
The thing is, I can't tell for sure whether I (technically) purchased the car from a licensed dealer, or from a private party. The title was in the name of a licensed dealer, which was owned by, but presumably a separate entity from, the seller. If I did purchase from a private party, I am not 100% sure that the sale would be considered legal rather than fraudulent, if a dealer had purposely misidentified itself as a private party to gain trust and skirt legal responsibility.

According the the AZ Lemon Law, a 'used motor vehicle dealer' is defined as 'a person or business that sells or offers for sale a used motor vehicle after selling or offering for sale four or more used motor vehicles in the previous twelve months but does not include a bank or financial institution, an insurance company, a business selling a used motor vehicle to an employee of that business, a lessor selling a leased vehicle by or to the lessee of that vehicle or to an employee of the lessee of that vehicle or a person who buys, sells, exchanges or offers or attempts to negotiate a sale of or exchange an interest in a classic car as defined in section 28-2483 or a historic vehicle as defined in section 28-2484.'

Another aspect of AZ law:

'Unless the seller is a used motor vehicle dealer, before the seller attempts to sell a used motor vehicle the seller shall possess the title to the used motor vehicle and the title shall be in the seller’s name.'

Again, I'm not so sure as to whether the seller is the person or a business. And then, even if I bought from a person, what if that person owns a business that is currently offering more than four vehicles for sale? And, if I understand correctly, if that person was not a 'used motor vehicle dealer,' the law was broke because the title was not in his name at the time of sale...

I hope to use leverage to get myself a mulligan here, and be out only registration fees and such. I seek to figure out what leverage I do and do not have. I could leave a negative Yelp review, I could submit a complaint to the Attorney General's office. Not sure what effect that would have.

Unfortunately, I assume that the seller probably knows the law and has his butt covered. Worst case, this thread is yet another cautionary tale.
 
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The thing is, I can't tell for sure whether I (technically) purchased the car from a licensed dealer, or from a private party. The title was in the name of a licensed dealer, which was owned by, but presumably a separate entity from, the seller. If I did purchase from a private party, I am not 100% sure that the sale would be considered legal rather than fraudulent, if a dealer had purposely misidentified itself as a private party to gain trust and skirt legal responsibility.

According the the AZ Lemon Law, a 'used motor vehicle dealer' is defined as 'a person or business that sells or offers for sale a used motor vehicle after selling or offering for sale four or more used motor vehicles in the previous twelve months but does not include a bank or financial institution, an insurance company, a business selling a used motor vehicle to an employee of that business, a lessor selling a leased vehicle by or to the lessee of that vehicle or to an employee of the lessee of that vehicle or a person who buys, sells, exchanges or offers or attempts to negotiate a sale of or exchange an interest in a classic car as defined in section 28-2483 or a historic vehicle as defined in section 28-2484.'

Again, I'm not so sure as to whether the seller is the person or a business. And then, even if I bought from a person, what if that person owns a business that is currently offering more than four vehicles for sale?

I hope to use leverage to get myself a mulligan here, and be out only registration fees and such. I seek to figure out what leverage I do and do not have. I could leave a negative Yelp review, I could submit a complaint to the Attorney General's office. Not sure what effect that would have.

Unfortunately, I assume that the seller probably knows the law and has his butt covered. Worst case, this thread is yet another cautionary tale.
Dude, you answered a Craigslist ad ...

You're not sure as to whether the seller is the person or a business.?


Then go back and ask to see his business license.
 
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justalayman

Senior Member
The car was titled to a dealership ergo it IS a purchase from a dealership regardless how he wants to color it. A private sale means a purchase from a private party. The guy you talked to didn't own the car or it would have had his name as owner of the car. Property titled to an LLC is owned by the LLC. Who owns the LLC is irrelevent (for these purposes).

I suspect he wants you to believe you purchased it from a private party since you lose the protections of consumer protection laws if a private party sale.

If there is an issue and there is law to protect you as a commercial sale, use those laws. This was not a private party sale because the car want owned by a private party.

You're misinterpreting the issue of possessing the title. What the law requires is that a dealer physically possess the title prior to selling the vehicle. A car passing through a dealership almost never is actually titled to the dealer Ownership passes through the dealer without the dealer actually taking title to the vehicle.

What that law prevents is a dealer selling a car they haven't recieved the title to yet. Sometimes there are difficulties with the dealer obtaining title and many willl try to sell the car while working to obtain the actual title. That means the buyer is made to wait for the title. Sometimes the title issue is never worked out and the buyer is put through a lot of hassle always being told; just hold on. The title
Is coming. The law seeks to prevent those situstions.
 

adjusterjack

Senior Member
Unfortunately, I assume that the seller probably knows the law and has his butt covered. Worst case, this thread is yet another cautionary tale.
Yes, you were curbstoned.

Yes, it is illegal for a person to sell a vehicle on an open title (title jumping).

You are free to report him to the DMV. What happens then is between him and the state. It won't get you your money back.

To get your money back and rescind the deal will take a court judgment and then good luck trying to enforce it even if you were willing to spend $$$$$ going to court.

I suggest you have the vehicle thoroughly inspected to satisfy yourself. If it turns out OK, you have good title and you can get on with your life.

If it turns out to be a POS well, as the other responder noted, life lesson from peeing on the electric fence.
 

TommyT

Junior Member
Appreciate the replies...

My hope is that I can work out an agreement to renege on the purchase. I'll be out reg fees, a tank of gas, and maybe $100. Seller won't have to worry about me becoming a headache. If I can't?

Fortunately, it's a good looking car, just about everything works (right now), it drives well and the sales price was below blue book value, even assuming a "fair" condition.

Unfortunately it is an older BMW - so small hidden issues can become costly. And I'm not a guy who could put on a straight face and resell a lemon. This is essentially what makes me a complete idiot.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Actually what the guy did is actually a criminal act

28-4591. Violation; classification

A person who violates this article or articles 1 through 7 of this chapter is guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor unless another classification is specifically prescribed in this chapter.
Within that group is this:
Chapter 10 article aka 28-4401
G. Except as otherwise provided in this section, a motor vehicle dealer or person acting as a motor vehicle dealer shall not park a motor vehicle for the primary purpose of displaying the vehicle for sale or for transfer of ownership on any of the following:

1. A public street or highway.

2. A public parking lot.

3. Any other public property.

4. Any private property if the public may lawfully drive a motor vehicle on the property. This paragraph does not apply if the property is a motor vehicle dealer's lot and the motor vehicle that is parked on the property is in the motor vehicle dealer's inventory.

I suspect you do have a right to rescind a sale that took place under illegal circumstances but if you wait I suspect the ratification by (in)action may prevent you from acting.

Obviously this guy should be reported to the state attorney's general office. They can deal with his license and illegal activity
 

TommyT

Junior Member
With some creativity I was able to locate at least 7 other cars this seller currently listed on CL (phone numbers are displayed in a way such that they can't be searched for easily). All ads have the same format, say similar things, and every one of them is pictured on a curb in a residential community. I've got screenshots.

So, worst case, I should be able to take this dude down. Best case, I'll get lucky with the car I bought, and will still see the guy taken down. So brazen...thanks for the 28-4401 cite...that's a misdemeanor for each car offered for sale I believe.

None of the cars have 'for sale' stickers on them - I'm not sure if that matters?
 
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TommyT

Junior Member
I suspect you do have a right to rescind a sale that took place under illegal circumstances but if you wait I suspect the ratification by (in)action may prevent you from acting.
Could I ask about the best way to go about enforcing such a right?

I will be filing complaint with the Attorney General's office, which is easier than filing a lawsuit.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Could I ask about the best way to go about enforcing such a right?

I will be filing complaint with the Attorney General's office, which is easier than filing a lawsuit.
Have you outright asked the guy?

If rebuffed I would say something about the law applicable to dealers prohibits sales on public or publically accessible property.

If he continues to argue it was a private sale or some other bs I would suggest giving up waiting until you can file with the AG.
 

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