Something new!?!!?! Free Speech

[Sparq]

What is the name of your state? AP

Hello everyone,

Some of you may know me some may not. I am currently active duty, Navy enlisted.
I hold great regard for the service and what it stands for. That being said I have made
up my mind and I am getting out of the Navy in less then one year.

Today in the office I made a statement, I am not exactly sure what I said but it was
something to the lines of "This Command pushes volunteerism so hard they let it interfere with the Sailors ability to do the job. They almost value it more then being good at your job. That's why I am getting out." I was speaking to a coworker at the time. My chief must of over heard me say this to him. At the end of the day the chief asked my LPO and me to have a seat and he told me "I take great pride in the Navy and what it has done no matter if I stay in or get out. Your comments of late seem to be very negative and I don't ever want to hear you say anything bad about the Navy" There was a bit more but I will cut it off and ask a simple question.


Can he limit what I say about the Military if I phrase it in an Option? I don't think Article 88 applies.

Just want to point out baking cookies has never won a war!

- Sparq

 

[ElvisG]

Yes, it’s a morale issue. You cannot say anything negative about the service or anyone in your chain-of-command. Negative attitudes on a ship spread like contagious disease.

If you don’t have anything positive to say then don’t say anything at all.

 

[Sparq]

I am pretty sure an enlisted person can say whatever they want to a worker as long it is not Racist or Sexist. I would just like some info on it.

 

[Zigner]

You didn't like the previous answer, huh?

 

[tranquility]

Not ever having been in the military, I only know what I see on TV and the movies, so I know I'm wrong. But, if a superior officer orders you to stand on your head for no reason, shouldn't you start immediately attempting to stand on your head?

 

[Silverplum]

Not ever having been in the military, I only know what I see on TV and the movies, so I know I'm wrong. But, if a superior officer orders you to stand on your head for no reason, shouldn't you start immediately attempting to stand on your head?

Yes, ma'am!

 

[Sparq]

No... there are unlawful orders

 

[Silverplum]

No... there are unlawful orders

Deliberately obtuse.

 

[SHORTY LONG]

Sparq, the Free Advice given you is correct, and straight on point.

You should already know this or at least you should have from being a Bailiff.
Check with any JAG Officer. Moreover, remember you are in the United States
Armed Forces and some of your Constitutional rights are curtailed, and
abrogated.

Now, about your present job in the Mess Hall, make no mistake about
this, in that it is a very important position, for no chow, no energy, etc.

To this end, the pissing contest is over; man-up and continue onward with
your duties, and the rest of your obligation to serve faithfully, and honorably.

Shorty Out!

 

[Sparq]

Sparq, the Free Advice given you is correct, and straight on point.

Now, about your present job in the Mess Hall, make no mistake about
this, in that it is a very important position, for no chow, no energy, etc.

To this end, the pissing contest is over; man-up and continue onward with
your duties, and the rest of your obligation to serve faithfully, and honorably.

Shorty Out!

I am not a MA. Nor have I ever been an MA, I am a CT. If you know anything about CT's you will know that I can not tell you what I do. I understand how you could have a misunderstanding with my talk of baking and being a bailiff. Good memory Shorty. If I was a MA I would have no need to ask what a Bailiff does, but I was working out of rate at the time. What I was commenting at the time was the fact this Command values people who bake cakes, i.e. to sell outside of work to raise money for whatever is getting them out of work at the time.

However you are missing the point, I don't mind my job. I like my job. The issue is can an E-7 limit what you can say, outside of racist, sexist or mutinist remarks of course. My question has not been answered. I have given 8 years of service, I plan on extending 1 year to go back to the Middle East. How I serve has nothing to do with my question.


-Sparq

 

[quincy]

Those in the military have, surprise surprise, freedom of speech rights.

Vietnam and Iraq are similar in that both wars spawned anti-war, anti-President rhetoric among the troops. And the military has had to find ways to balance free speech rights with command obligations. Although conduct that can harm or destroy the effectiveness of a unit must be dealt with, service members' rights to expression must also be protected.

The Department of Defense has two directives that specifically address and govern political speech (Directive 1325.6 and 1344.10). There are guidelines established for dealing with protests and dissident activities, and an outline of those activities that are appropriate for active-duty service members to engage in (such as voting, political rallies, contributing to partisan campaigns). Members have the right to criticize and oppose a war, or support the war. And opinions expressed in private conversations or during political discussions are considered protected speech.

Where a service member can run into problems with free speech is when he/she is wearing his/her uniform in public. The wearing of a uniform when public speaking (during an interview, say, on Dateline) can imply an official sponsorship, or can discredit the armed forces - so it is forbidden. And a service member runs into problems with free speech when the member's conduct or speech in the military disrupts the order and discipline, especially when showing contempt towards officials (I think this might be addressed in Article 134?). While serving, statements made that are "contemptuous" toward officials, that are disloyal to the U.S., that are in praise of the enemy, that denounce Democracy, or that attack the U.S. war aims can result in disciplinary action.

Court-martials are rare for those who show contempt for officials (mostly because "contempuous behavior" has been hard for the courts to define), or for those who express their political views or opinions. However, some speech under some circumstances can result in letters of reprimand and poor evaluation reports, and, rarely, dismissal, loss of pay and confinement.

 

[Sparq]

Thank you Quincy.

Contempt towards officials is covered Artical 88 of the UCMJ

“Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

The reason I even bring this up on this forum will be listed below. Please have a read and tell me if I am way off.

Article 90—Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior officer

(iv) Relationship to statutory or constitutional rights. The order must not conflict with the statutory or constitutional rights of the person receiving the order.

I had left out the fact my Command does not have a JAG or even a LN. The last LN we had left last year, no one is filling their duties ATM.



- Sparq

 

[badapple40]

I'd follow the order and do what he says.

Article 91.

891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
...
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Guess what the penalty is: BCD, 1 year confinement...

And the order looks like it is reasonable to me.

 

[Sparq]

Aye Aye

Thanks to all who helped.

 

[quincy]

I agree that it is wisest to follow the orders of your superior officer, but since I spent a lot of time reading over Article 90 (and Articles 89, 91, 92, 133 and 134 ), I thought I would make another comment.

Court decisions made in the 1970s forced the military to be more specific about what conduct is allowable for those in service and what isn't, as many cases that were being decided then were over Vietnam and anti-war speech. Many were "voided" due to the vagueness of the military code language. One case that I read over, which is interesting and worth a read, is Parker, Warden, et al v. Levy (1974). It dealt in part with free speech in the military.

Justice Douglas, Justice Stewart and Justice Brennan presented dissenting opinions. Douglas made a point that the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law. . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press. . " and nowhere does it list exceptions, including for the military. He also said that, "In our society where diversities are supposed to flourish, it could never be 'unbecoming' to express one's views, even on the most controversial public issue."

The opinion also proposed that the military list specific rights and conduct - which is today part of the Department of Defense's directives.

At any rate, from what I have read and reviewed, members of the military are not excluded from First Amendment protections, but due to the necessity of obedience and discipline, there is a different application of these protections. What is free and tolerable speech outside of the military may, in the military, undermine operations and is, therefore, not protected by the First Amendment in all cases.

Good luck during your next few months in the Navy. And thanks for your service! You are appreciated.