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International visitation (a longshot maybe)

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LadyRose

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? Va

I'll try to be brief, while also providing a bit of background.

Ex and I have joint legal custody, with primary physical going to me. Standard every-other weekend/one night mid-week Court Order (although we've always done more than that).

However.

My ex-husband is military and recently transferred to Germany. Next summer, he would like to have the children (11 & 13) visit him for an extended stay (6 weeks) in Europe for visitation.

I feel comfortable (as much as can be, anyway) in signing passports and 'allowing' for this, as there really haven't been many disagreements in regards to the kids, and although he didn't make great 'huband material' for me--he is a great father to them.

However.

I'm a real stickler for documentation. Therefore, my question is:

Do the U.S. and Germany have 'reciprocal custody laws'? Meaning, if somehow he turned out to be someone I would have never guessed he would be and he refused to return the children, would I have some type of legal recourse to get my children back?

I realize this site states "U.S. law only", but I'm hoping maybe someone might have some knowledge on this subject, and maybe be able to direct me to where I might find this law if it exists.

I have other questions in the same vein, but figured I'd start with this one.

Thanks in advance,
Rose
 


L

LadyRose

Junior Member
Okay, figured it may be a longshot question. Thanks to those of you that have viewed it.

One more that I'm hoping maybe someone here has experience with.

Is there such a thing as a 'restricted' passport that can be issued for children? Something that would limit destinations that the passport could be used for?

Thanks,
Rose
 
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VeronicaGia

Senior Member
No, the kids either have a passport or they don't. You may have to look up the laws in Germany to find your answer.
 
B

BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
VeronicaGia said:
No, the kids either have a passport or they don't. You may have to look up the laws in Germany to find your answer.
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First, before this can be right or wrong, we need to know if your ex is a citizen of Germany or is employed by a U.S. company who has transferred him to Germany OR is a member still of the military.
 
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RamblerHK

Guest
International visitation (a longshot maybe)

International Common Law Jurisdiction

Not a lawyer as they say, but to the OP, the thing that covers this is The Hague Convention, which is a treaty on the returning of children in such situations. I don't know if Germany is a signatory (pretty sure they would be) but the US is, and what typically happens is that if your ex decided to try and retain custody, then you would file a Hague motion in the US courts and an order would be granted and then Germany would enforce the return. In some instances, Germany would hold a seperate hearing to see if the whole thing complied, but again probably not a problem. Time frame is fairly quick, so I understand, at about six weeks or so.
 
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carofl93

Member
If your husband is active duty military, he is bound by the laws of the US, even though he is living in another country. He cannot legally keep the children past the visitation date unless it is agreed upon by both of you. My husband is active duty AF and while he was stationed in Japan, his son from a previous marriage visited him from the states. Believe me when I say that the military seriously frowns on military parents who don't abide by court orders, and he would be in deep doo doo if he were to stupidly decide to take the kids.
 
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LadyRose

Junior Member
Thank you for all the replies. In answer to some of the questions and points raised:

Ex is Active Duty Army. He is not a German citizen. Born and raised here in the U.S.

I am aware that, as active duty, he is a guest in Germany. That he is bound not only by U.S. law, but also military law. I'm assuming that, as a guest, Germany would have some type of agreement to cooperate with U.S. authorities with respect to the soldiers and airmen in the country. That's where my question stems from.

Thank you for the mention of the Hague Convention. I will certainly research it for more clarity.

The replies have brought on an additional question, if I may trouble you again.

Since the Court Order doesn't have a provision for extended summer visitation, I'm guessing I should have an agreement drawn up and filed with the court before I send the children to another country? Is it even possible to write up a 'one time only' agreement and have the court enforce it? Or would we have to go through an entire modification?

Thank you again,
Rose
 
I

Illinois Parent

Member
First, as you are both US Citizens and the kids were born here, only US law applies. Second, yes, you can get a 'one time only' exception or modification to the visitation. You both agree to it, put it before the judge and it is done.

If you fear you may have an issue getting the kids back, legal fees and specific monies can be ordered turned over to you if he does not return the kids when agreed. To make it more palatable to him, also put in there monies that you would have to turn over to him if you failed to produce the children at the said date and time (such as the cost of transportation and a penalty). To protect both of you, put in a stipulation that would cover extreme illness or catastrophic circumstances, and be as specific, or not as you want.

The thing you are asking about, even though it really doesn't apply since you are all US Citizens, is referred to as The Hague Convention. It is an international treaty signed by about 43 countries that basically states that signatory nations will honor the custody decisions of other signatory nations. It does work on paper, but in reality it is both difficult and expensive to execute. What it does primarily is give citizens of other signatory nations legal standing in the other's court. Like all treaties though, it is dense, verbose and filled with loopholes large enough to drive a mack truck through.

Bottom line...go with your gut. Read some of the posts of CP's trying to get kids back from another state. Put an ocean between you and the cost and difficulty multiplies with the miles.
 
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carofl93

Member
Illinois Parent said:
First, as you are both US Citizens and the kids were born here, only US law applies. Second, yes, you can get a 'one time only' exception or modification to the visitation. You both agree to it, put it before the judge and it is done.

If you fear you may have an issue getting the kids back, legal fees and specific monies can be ordered turned over to you if he does not return the kids when agreed. To make it more palatable to him, also put in there monies that you would have to turn over to him if you failed to produce the children at the said date and time (such as the cost of transportation and a penalty). To protect both of you, put in a stipulation that would cover extreme illness or catastrophic circumstances, and be as specific, or not as you want.

The thing you are asking about, even though it really doesn't apply since you are all US Citizens, is referred to as The Hague Convention. It is an international treaty signed by about 43 countries that basically states that signatory nations will honor the custody decisions of other signatory nations. It does work on paper, but in reality it is both difficult and expensive to execute. What it does primarily is give citizens of other signatory nations legal standing in the other's court. Like all treaties though, it is dense, verbose and filled with loopholes large enough to drive a mack truck through.

Bottom line...go with your gut. Read some of the posts of CP's trying to get kids back from another state. Put an ocean between you and the cost and difficulty multiplies with the miles.
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The monetary bond that IllinoisParent mentioned is a good idea. In fact, that is the only way that my husband's ex can have an unsupervised visitation with their daughter. The court order in his case stipulates a minimum of $5000 to cover transportation for their daughter and my husband as well as funds to cover a Private Investigator should the ex decide to take their child and run, as she has done once before the physical custody was transferred to us.
 
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BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
Thank you for the mention of the Hague Convention. I will certainly research it for more clarity.
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The Hague Convention will not apply. As active duty, even living in Germany, your ex will not leave U.S. Soil therefore, pursue the bond and contact the Consulate on Prinzregenten Str. in Munich to notify them of the visitation order and dates when your child will be required to return.

Also, contact his base commander (he should be required to leave this information with you and you should verify it before allowing your child to leave).

Otherwise, leave them alone to enjoy each other.
Und Jetzt, es ist zu Ende :D
 
L

LadyRose

Junior Member
nicht so schnell, BB! (okay--so I babelfished it :D )

Curious how he is not leaving U.S. soil, as he lives off base. I 'get' what you mean, just wondering if his living off base changes that in any way.

Thanks to all for the informative replies. They've truly helped. I do plan to let them enjoy each other (as BB suggested) and send them over. I want them to enjoy some time with their dad (they miss him terribly), and BOY what a chance for them to travel and see that there is more to this world than their own back yard.

I was just raised on the theory of CYA, is all. :D
 
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BelizeBreeze

Senior Member
Curious how he is not leaving U.S. soil, as he lives off base. I 'get' what you mean, just wondering if his living off base changes that in any way.
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Naturlich Nicht. Er is immer noch ein Amerikaner und bei Amerikaner Gesetzt leben mussen.
 
I

Illinois Parent

Member
BelizeBreeze - -please note in my reply I did state that the Hague Convention does not apply. I mentioned it because the poster seemed to be fishing for the 'something'.

And no, LadyRose, it matters not whether he lives on or off base. He is still a US Citizen as is your child. Even if he were to marry a German, it would not matter. Germans do not claim the children of spouses from a previous marriange/relationship, who were not born in Germany or to a German parent as nationals.

All the advise you have been given is right on the money. Contacting the base commander is a sure fire way to make certain everything remains above the board. A note of caution, though. Tell him you are going to be sending copies, that you are 'required' to do so of the court ordered visitation. Tell him that doing so may get him some time off, again so it is in his benefit. Otherwise, it could come back to him in some sort of negative way and unless you want to cause him issues with his CO, dont sandbag him with it. The military has gotten pretty strict (in most instances) on these things due to all the problems service personnel have had with custody issues.

Good luck to you.
 
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