grandma's house

CA

my husband's grandparents put him and my father-in-law jtwros on title to their home over 20 years ago. their will supported this. grandpa died in 1992. in 1999 grandma was diagnosed with stage 3 alzheimer's. we moved out of grandma's house in 2000 and grandma went to live with my in-laws. the house has been empty since. in 2001 grandma signed a new will leaving everything to my father-in-law and designating him poa. in 2003 she signed a quit claim putting her 1/3 interest in the property into her living trust. we checked with a title company and they say that the house is still held jtwros, but i thought that the property automatically changes to tic with a trust?

the in-laws want to sell the house. we are interested in buying the house, but they want $600K (2/3 of what they believe is fmv for a 1 bdr. <1000 sf house). of course, we would rather give them 1/2 of true fmv. if we do give them 2/3 fmv, how can we make sure that grandma's 1/3 is truly set aside for her benefit in case she needs the money? she has few expenses, but her $4k pension disappears each month. we know that 100% of the house should go to her care if she should need it, but we don't know how to make sure that happens as it is not happening now and my in-laws want to sell. we are worried that the money will disappear fast once it is in their hands. my father-in-law took his pension in a lump sum 5 years ago and it evaporated with only a landcruiser and a rolex watch to show for it now. can we put grandma's 1/3 into a joint account with my husband? i'm really hoping that you won't tell me that we'd have to petition for a conservatorship.

kristianne1 said:

CA

my husband's grandparents put him and my father-in-law jtwros on title to their home over 20 years ago. their will supported this. grandpa died in 1992. in 1999 grandma was diagnosed with stage 3 alzheimer's. we moved out of grandma's house in 2000 and grandma went to live with my in-laws. the house has been empty since. in 2001 grandma signed a new will leaving everything to my father-in-law and designating him poa. in 2003 she signed a quit claim putting her 1/3 interest in the property into her living trust. we checked with a title company and they say that the house is still held jtwros, but i thought that the property automatically changes to tic with a trust?

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You thought wrong. Once the deed was originally changed it cannot be altered again without ALL parties to the transaction signing.

the in-laws want to sell the house. we are interested in buying the house, but they want $600K (2/3 of what they believe is fmv for a 1 bdr. <1000 sf house).

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And that is their right.

of course, we would rather give them 1/2 of true fmv. if we do give them 2/3 fmv, how can we make sure that grandma's 1/3 is truly set aside for her benefit in case she needs the money?

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Her 1/3 is in trust. Correct?

she has few expenses, but her $4k pension disappears each month. we know that 100% of the house should go to her care if she should need it, but we don't know how to make sure that happens as it is not happening now and my in-laws want to sell.

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You are incorrect. She, at some point in the past, deeded the home to the in-laws, retaining a 1/3 interest. That is the ONLY interest, regardless of the will, that she retains.

we are worried that the money will disappear fast once it is in their hands.

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Why shouldn't it. it's their money, or a portion of it anyway.

my father-in-law took his pension in a lump sum 5 years ago and it evaporated with only a landcruiser and a rolex watch to show for it now.

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And that is not only irrelevant but none of your business.

can we put grandma's 1/3 into a joint account with my husband?

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Yes, if you want a lot of heartache and problems later down the road.

i'm really hoping that you won't tell me that we'd have to petition for a conservatorship.

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No because that won't matter in the final analysis.

The only fact that is not clear is did the grandparents retain an ownership interest in the property when they deeded your husband and his father the JTWROS? Answer this then we'll proceed.

his grandparents did retain partial ownership. the deed was grandpa, grandma, father-in-law, and my husband jt. my husband didn't sign anything when the deed was changed to put his grandma's share into her trust. we didn't realize this was done until recently.

kristianne1 said:

his grandparents did retain partial ownership. the deed was grandpa, grandma, father-in-law, and my husband jt. my husband didn't sign anything when the deed was changed to put his grandma's share into her trust. we didn't realize this was done until recently.

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Well then you are not going to like my answer.

so, before I tell you and because I don't want you coming back and pissing all over me as some have because I gave you the CORRECT answer, first I want to know if you REALLY want to hear it.

lol! i promise not to piss on you. vomit is more my style.

o.k. then, from your post it is not clear what the percentage of ownership interest is in this matter. That would require a full review of the deed and how the grandparents were listed EXACTLY on the deed at the time of the transfer. That would require also a review of the relevant probate statutes of your state.

Second, anyone listed on the deed is an owner with full rights and priviledges to the property regardless of how they are listed (except for life estate which does not convey ownership interest in the underlying property).

What that means is that anyone listed on the deed can sell or force a sale of the property through Partition. What is does NOT mean is that the person who affects such sale will get the proceeds of the sale and distribute same. They, as well as all other owners, will receive their percentage of ownership interest.

What I would strongly suggest is that you consult with a probate or real estate attorney as to the transfer of ownership from grandpa's share of the 'estate' upon his passing and go from there.

Granny either owns 1/3 or 1/2 interest in the home (or somewhere in-between). More I can't tell you until the probate of grandpa's estate is cleared.

that wasn't so bad... i don't feel even a bit of nausea. i really appreciate your response.

we consulted a probate attorney several years ago. he had us file an affidavit-death of joint tenant form. my in-laws are probably reluctant to force a sale because they know we could contest the new will/trust due to the alzheimer's.

i'm not sure if we're concerned with %'s at this point. we're trying to figure out how to best protect grandma financially in case she needs a lot of money for her care. my in-laws are not protecting her future. is there any way that we can make sure that grandma's portion is saved for her future expenses? even though my husband and father-in-law are legally entitled to a share, morally the money should go to his grandma if she should need it.

kristianne1 said:

that wasn't so bad... i don't feel even a bit of nausea. i really appreciate your response.

we consulted a probate attorney several years ago. he had us file an affidavit-death of joint tenant form. my in-laws are probably reluctant to force a sale because they know we could contest the new will/trust due to the alzheimer's.

i'm not sure if we're concerned with %'s at this point. we're trying to figure out how to best protect grandma financially in case she needs a lot of money for her care. my in-laws are not protecting her future. is there any way that we can make sure that grandma's portion is saved for her future expenses? even though my husband and father-in-law are legally entitled to a share, morally the money should go to his grandma if she should need it.

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Morality has nothing to do with this. The law doesn't have a morality clause.

If you want to pull the monies out that granny is entitled to then force a sale by Partition and file a petition to become her conservator. Then you can set aside the moneis she will realize from the sale to help support her for the time she has left.

If you want to 'morally' do the right thing, then tell hubby his share should also go into the trust. But it's not LEGALLY required.

Have a consult with a trust attorney so that you can find out your options and granny's in this situation.

we're reluctant to put the money into grandma's trust because we have no idea what it says. we're pretty sure it says that my father-in-law gets everything since that's what he had her change her will to say. is a trust attny different than a probate attny? i would also guess petitioning for conservatorship would take up big $ and time that she doesn't have at the age of 92, but thanks.

btw, isn't the law supposed to be based on morality? you can't say that the two are completely separate. i think if you add a few more "clauses" into belizebreeze law you'll be able to understand woman-eze better. (not intended to be mean)

Please consult a probate or attorney specializing in elder issues. Signing anything after diagnosis of AZ is suspitious at best and suggests undue influence without a conservetor appointed. Contact the probate court for information on your county's rules. Contact your county's Adult Protective Services for assessment and referals, they have access to many programs for seniors. It looks like they may be spending down, hoping to transfer the funds out of grandma's name so they can dump her in a nursing home on Medi-cal. Call an appraiser or a RE agent in the area to get an idea of the FMV for the home. The value of an unoccupied home can depreciate rapidly due to decline in condition compaired to others in the area. Is there an elder abuse or neglect? That incluses financial abuse or isolation.

kristianne1 said:

we're reluctant to put the money into grandma's trust because we have no idea what it says. we're pretty sure it says that my father-in-law gets everything since that's what he had her change her will to say. is a trust attny different than a probate attny? i would also guess petitioning for conservatorship would take up big $ and time that she doesn't have at the age of 92, but thanks.

btw, isn't the law supposed to be based on morality? you can't say that the two are completely separate. i think if you add a few more "clauses" into belizebreeze law you'll be able to understand woman-eze better. (not intended to be mean)

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My signature is a true-ism. Such as "Men don't talk and women talk in circles".....

thanks rmet4. i'm still not sure if there is a difference between a probate and a trust attorney and an attorney that specializes in elder law.

we are still going through adult protective services, a conservatorship, etc. for my paternal grandfather. it's been a huge costly mess that is still continuing, so we are reluctant to go that route with grandma who is probably enduring fiduciary abuse.

kristianne1 said:

thanks rmet4. i'm still not sure if there is a difference between a probate and a trust attorney and an attorney that specializes in elder law.

we are still going through adult protective services, a conservatorship, etc. for my paternal grandfather. it's been a huge costly mess that is still continuing, so we are reluctant to go that route with grandma who is probably enduring fiduciary abuse.

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Yes there is a difference, if I knew your county I might be able to give you some specific agency referals. The fact that your grandmother-in-law is being abused is an excellent reason to go through APS. If Grandma is 92 how old is her son? How long can he care for his mother in his home as AZ progresses? She needs a competent caregiver or conservetor with no undue influence.

rmet4nzkx said:

Yes there is a difference, if I knew your county I might be able to give you some specific agency referals. The fact that your grandmother-in-law is being abused is an excellent reason to go through APS. If Grandma is 92 how old is her son? How long can he care for his mother in his home as AZ progresses? She needs a competent caregiver or conservetor with no undue influence.

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SF County. we had a bad experience with aps in my paternal grandpa's case where my aunt took all of his money and ran up $120K in credit card debt. my father-in-law is now 72 years old.

AZ is often genetically linked, so children of AZ patients may also have early signs of dementia and not be competient as opposed to outright fraud or abuse. Since you have had a bad experience with APS, who in most cases only does referals more so than intervention, here is a different referal for City/CO of San Francisco. http://www.elderabusecenter.org/default.cfm?p=ioa.cfm
The San Francisco Consortium for Elder Abuse Prevention
Institute on Aging
3330 Geary Boulevard
San Francisco, California
Telephone: (415) 447-1989, x513
Fax: (415) 447-1250
Email: [email protected]