Probable Cause for Traffic Stop

What is the name of your state? GA


I've searched for quite a bit to find my answers, but I can't find much that is particularly relevant. I'm looking for an opinion regarding a bad traffic stop in a DUI case.

On officer (from directly across the street) witnesses a vehicle come screeching to a halt as the light turns red. The vehicles are facing each other at the same light. Once the light turns green, The suspect vehicle passed the officer at a high rate of speed and proceded down the road left of center. Note the road has no painted lines, is barely wide enough for 2 vehicles, and is a residential street. The officer performs a Uturn and follows the suspect .1 mile with no flahing lights on.

Suspect makes a right turn onto XXXXXX street, the officer follows and reports more observance of "left of center" for .1 mile. Still no flahing lights.

Suspect makes a left on to YYYYY street, and officer follws another .1 mile. Still no lights. Suspect pulls into his own driveway, exits the vehicle, and makes it 1/2 way to the front door before being alerted by the officers flashing lights and loud speaker. The officer demands the driver to approach the police car which is by now IN the driveway.

As the suspect approaches the police car, the officer notices a "stagger" and to be quite honest, it's all downhill from there.

Here's the interesting part...... Streets XXXXX and YYYYYY are "private roads" as declared by the owners of the roads and the city that they are in. It is a private subdivision, and it is clearly stated that the "rules of the road" may only be enforced by the board of directors. There is a "private property" sign at the entrance to the neighborhood.

Certainly, if the officer thought he had probable cause to make a stop at the light, he would have. Instead, he decided to follow the suspect. Follow as in "investigate" further, by videotaping and invading the privacy of the suspect. The point at which the officer made the actual stop (flashing lights) was in NO WAY visible from ANY public property due to geography.




Is there still a 4th amendment?

So, do I have ANY leg to stand on? Thanks in advance!

NO. You were driving on public highway. "Tough titty" said the kitty. There could be numerous reasons why he stopped you on private property. It doesn't matter where he stopped you, just where a violation/crime was committed.

"Invading the privacy of the suspect".... are you kidding me? Smile for the camera... say hi to your jury.

BigMistakeFl

The "probable cause" would be noted on the public street. He followed you into a private street and arrested you on your own private property. That isn't unusual.

Your "private road" claim is not relevent. I would bet that when the county/city issued the permits for the road to be built, jurisdiction for traffic control was given to the local police. The exception to this would be a gated community. The only real difference between a private roadway and a public roadway is who pays for repairs and maintainance.

Good points folks, but I'd like to point out some issues.

To travel the .3 miles from the first sight of the officer takes about 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes he could have pulled me over but didn't. By his own ACTIONS, even HE believed he had no probable cause for a traffic stop. I highly doubt that any officer who had reasonable grounds for making a DUI stop would WAIT to turn on his lights. He wanted to gather more evidence, but he never got it. He waited until I stopped on my own so that he could question me by a chance encounter, in which he needs no probable cause. That's all fine and dandy in most case, except he had no right to be within a quarter mile of my driveway. There were no other tickets written, not for improper braking, not for left of center.

If I would have made it into my house, would he have been able to follow me into my living room? I don't think so, that's why he hit the siren when I was 3 feet from the front door. Do I not have the right to be secure on my own property?

The whole neighborhood IS private property and the city by law has no right to enforce the rules of the road. 2/3 of us would have had to sign a petition and submit it to the city. We never did. There are examples (parking lots, etc) where even private property may be treated as public by the police, but my neighborhood fits none of those categories.

From what I read, an officer needs the same amount of probable cause that a judge would require in order to issue a search warrant. He DID in fact search my neighborhood. He did in fact SEIZE me by not allowing me to enter my home. Would a judge have issued a search warrant for screeching tires?

So he didn't feel strongly enough about his probable cause to PULL ME OVER IMMEDIATELY, but he did feel he had gounds to seach private property? As far as I know, an officer needs MORE probable cause to make a search than he does to make a traffic stop.

peanut44 said:

Good points folks, but I'd like to point out some issues.

To travel the .3 miles from the first sight of the officer takes about 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes he could have pulled me over but didn't. By his own ACTIONS, even HE believed he had no probable cause for a traffic stop. I highly doubt that any officer who had reasonable grounds for making a DUI stop would WAIT to turn on his lights. He wanted to gather more evidence, but he never got it. He waited until I stopped on my own so that he could question me by a chance encounter, in which he needs no probable cause. That's all fine and dandy in most case, except he had no right to be within a quarter mile of my driveway. There were no other tickets written, not for improper braking, not for left of center.

**A: so what. The officer could have waited 5 or 10 minutes to pull you over.
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If I would have made it into my house, would he have been able to follow me into my living room?

**A: don't be silly.
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I don't think so, that's why he hit the siren when I was 3 feet from the front door. Do I not have the right to be secure on my own property?

**A: not if you commited a crime outside of your property.

*********

The whole neighborhood IS private property and the city by law has no right to enforce the rules of the road. 2/3 of us would have had to sign a petition and submit it to the city. We never did. There are examples (parking lots, etc) where even private property may be treated as public by the police, but my neighborhood fits none of those categories.

**A: not relevant since the crime occured outside of the private property.
********

From what I read, an officer needs the same amount of probable cause that a judge would require in order to issue a search warrant. He DID in fact search my neighborhood. He did in fact SEIZE me by not allowing me to enter my home. Would a judge have issued a search warrant for screeching tires?

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**A: ob brother, get real. Fact it, you're guilty and are grasping at straws to get off the hook.

HomeGuru said:

**A: ob brother, get real. Fact it, you're guilty and are grasping at straws to get off the hook.

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Excellent response officer! You must be a cop. You're the only ones who assume guilty until proven innocent!

The truth is, I want the absolute best defense I can get, what's wrong with that?

So, an officer invades my space, my kingdom, and my castle, on a hunch, Let's say he was 90% sure in his head. WOOP DE DO. He didn't feel it important wnough to cite me for skidding did he? That in NO WAY gives him the authority to search my property. If he would have pulled me over for skidding, would that fact alone have given him the right to search the car? NOPE!

There's a bazillion other things wrong with this case too, you guys are getting me fired up!

Wow, you're a criminal defense attorney? So what was your BAC after you were arrested?

Nope, not an atty. I just don't enjoy people infringing on my rights. bac was .12

Here's some more "straws" I've been grasping....

On the incident report, the following things are wrong.

1. The "primary location" which is my home address, has 2 of the numbers transposed. That address does not exist. Also the zip is wrong.

2. The zip is wrong for my address in the personal information box.

3. The incident date is wrong.

All of the dates, etc on the tickets are correct though.

I know typos are no grounds for defense, but if the officer has no attention to detail, how can anybody be sure as to what he ACTUALLY saw?


In his report, he says that HE was STOPPED at the RED light as he saw me exit a shopping center, drive to the light, then slam on the brakes AS THE LIGHT TURNED RED. That statement is an impossiblity. You can't be at a red light, and watch somebody do something AS IT TURNS TO RED. His light was timed exactly as mine. I know for sure because I sit at this light 5 times per day. Maybe he was confused? What else could he be confused about?

I was at a well lit intersection, drove past the officer within 15 feet of him, then he followed me for .3 miles. In the report he identifies me as a "blue sedan" Once he pulls behind me (5 feet) in the driveway, he says the vehicle was identified as a MAKE, MODEL. Maybe his vision ain't so great?


So he has shown a less than perfect attention to detail, may have possibly been confused about some things, and maybe his vision was no so great.

Also note that everything I discussed so far is from his report, with the exception of the fact that this was on private property. We haven't even gotten to the fact of what I say happened. I already know that my version of things simply doesn't matter.

******* END OF POST *******

He isn't listening.... so let's let him rant by himself!!!!!


(If your right were so terribly violated, and the officer did such a horrible job, sue him, fight the charge. Then come back here and tell us how it worked out...)

We'll be right!!!!! TOODLES

You haven't seen a rant yet Mr. Poo! In fact, you are the one with the nasty attitude, Dood. My posts are long because I'm trying to be thorough.

I'm here trying too see if I have any sort of defense against these charges. I know, and have given these scenarios to 5 different police officers. 3 have told me I'm screwed, 2 said I might have a shot depending on the officer, the judge, and my lawyer. I'm simply looking for more input. I'm pretty sure that's the "purpose" of this forum.

Why am I the bad guy because I don't want to roll over and let the state have it's way with me?

So, I guess my whole private property issue is as follows. Bad driving is not probable cause for a search of a home, a car, or a person, how can it be probable cause for searching private property?

I think you need to take that 3 to 2 vote to heart and find yourself a good lawyer. You are complaining that the cop did not pull you over within the three minutes he was following you before you drove onto private property. That ain't gonna cut you no slack. How do you know what he was doing: checking wants and warrants maybe? maybe there was something he wanted to double check before stopping you?
Maybe he was just giving you some more rope.


Here's a bright idea. Maybe he knew where you lived and since you were obviously headed there, he was letting you park your car at your house rather than having it towed and impounded.

And as far as this statement:

The whole neighborhood IS private property and the city by law has no right to enforce the rules of the road. 2/3 of us would have had to sign a petition and submit it to the city. We never did. There are examples (parking lots, etc) where even private property may be treated as public by the police, but my neighborhood fits none of those categories.

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Whoever originally applied to install this subdivision could have done this part as well as other ways this would not apply.

BTW: who maintains the roads in question?

and yes, the officer may very well have been able to follow you into your home. If he saw you break the law, he can follow you to enforce it. I like that idea though. I can now shoot somebody in my front yard and as long as I run in the house, the cops can't touch me. Novel idea.

peanut44 said:

To travel the .3 miles from the first sight of the officer takes about 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes he could have pulled me over but didn't. By his own ACTIONS, even HE believed he had no probable cause for a traffic stop.

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You are free to infer that, but there can be MANY reasons why the officer did not make the stop there. These reasons can include (but are not limited to): no cover units available, radio tied up with higher priority traffic, waiting for a return on your license plate, waiting for another officer to say that he was okay and did not need assistance, waiting for a safe location for the stop, waiting for a familiar location to make the stop, etc.

The fact he did not make the stop when he had the chance does NOT mitigate probable cause.

I highly doubt that any officer who had reasonable grounds for making a DUI stop would WAIT to turn on his lights.

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And you woul dbe wrong.

That's all fine and dandy in most case, except he had no right to be within a quarter mile of my driveway. There were no other tickets written, not for improper braking, not for left of center.

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You were wrong. He followed you onto the property as he could follow anyone who he had believed committed a crime. Your road is not "home base" in a game of tag. And of course he wouldn't write tickets for these other offenses, they make the cause for the stop and are part of the DUI allegation. In some states had he written you for those violations you could plead out on those violations and skate on the DUI due to double jeopardy.

If I would have made it into my house, would he have been able to follow me into my living room?

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Possibly. It depends on the status of state and appellate law in your area.

Do I not have the right to be secure on my own property?

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It's not "home base".

The whole neighborhood IS private property and the city by law has no right to enforce the rules of the road.

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Then if he articulates that the violation he stopped you for was first observed on property where he had no right to be, you can argue that the stop was unlawful. But if he articulated good cause for the stop prior to your entering this private road, then the argument is moot.

He DID in fact search my neighborhood.

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No he did not.

He did in fact SEIZE me by not allowing me to enter my home.

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Correct. That's called a detention.

Additionally, I don't know about GA, but in most states DUI includes driving intoxicated even on ANY private property!

So he didn't feel strongly enough about his probable cause to PULL ME OVER IMMEDIATELY, but he did feel he had gounds to seach private property?

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Addressed above.

As far as I know, an officer needs MORE probable cause to make a search than he does to make a traffic stop.

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He didn't make a search ... he made a detention.

Hire an attorney who specializes in DUI law and see what he has to say.

- Carl

Your road is not "home base" in a game of tag.

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I love this line Carl. I think if I ever get followed into my drive I'm going to jump out and yell "home base, I'm safe"