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internet gambling debt collection

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curious3000

Junior Member
What is the name of your state? california

hello,

about a year ago i made some eft deposits to an offshore internet poker/gambling site. after losing, i placed stop payments on the deposits ($2000). i just got a letter from, what i believe, is a debt collections agency threatening to sue for the money. is it legal to collect on illegal internet gambling debt in the state of california? will this stick in court?

thank you for your time,

curious3000What is the name of your state?
 


Kanchazi

Member
Post from BK site Might help



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of you people have no idea what Im talkin about. All credit card companies have been sued before and the gambler's cases were successful Heres one story when visa lost $70000.


The only difference is gambling was legal in places when these people gambled and sued but in OH its not. I just wanted some legal opinion thats all.

Thanks Skancheese for your genuine reply unlike others.


"
Settling an unusual lawsuit, Visa affliates have agreed to clear the credit rating of a woman who gambled away more than $70,000 on the Net and to warn consumers of the legal risks of using credit cards to roll the dice online.

As previously reported, Cynthia Haines used her credit cards to gamble over the Internet from her home in California and was sued by her credit issuer, Providian National Bank, because of unpaid bills. She then filed a countersuit against the bank as well as Visa and MasterCard, claiming the companies were at fault for letting her gamble with credit in the first place.

The suit also alleged that Internet gambling debts couldn't be collected in California because the wagers are illegal in the first place.

In July, MasterCard settled with Haines and adopted a policy that gambling sites would have to post a notice stating that Internet gambling could be illegal in a customer's jurisdiction.

Now Visa has come to a similar agreement with Haines, according to the court agreement.

Haines will not have to pay back her debts directly. The online gambling sites that took her bets will cover them with the Visa issuing banks. The Visa merchant sites will pay Providian National Bank nearly $5,000 and will pay First Union Direct Bank $5,400.

The Visa issuing banks have agreed to clear the interest on the bets and to state that Haines's account has been paid off.

Visa was not immediately available for comment.

"Visa has acknowledged that Visa is not everywhere you want to be when it comes to Internet gambling transactions--in some places, like California, such transactions are illegal," Haines attorney Ira Rothken said in a statement.

Congress is considering a bill that would outlaw most forms of Net gambling. The Internet Gambling Prohibition Act, authored by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Arizona), would update the Federal Wire Act, which prohibits taking bets over phone lines.

"We believe that Visa has made significant progress since this case started in dealing with Internet gambling transactions, and ultimately they will be in the position technologically to prohibit all such transactions in the United States if and when the Kyl bill is passed by Congress," Rothken said.

The settlement requires Visa to send nationwide cardholders and its members the following notice:

"Internet Gambling Advisory: Internet gambling may be illegal in the jurisdiction in which you are located, including locations within the United States. Visa cards may only be used for legal transactions.

"Display of a payment card logo by an online merchant does not mean that Internet gambling transactions are lawful in all jurisdictions in which the cardholder may be located."
"


tmmore
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#7 Yesterday, 08:27 PM
Who's Liable?
Senior Member
 
Last edited:
Kanchazi said:
Post from BK site Might help



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of you people have no idea what Im talkin about. All credit card companies have been sued before and the gambler's cases were successful Heres one story when visa lost $70000.


The only difference is gambling was legal in places when these people gambled and sued but in OH its not. I just wanted some legal opinion thats all.

Thanks Skancheese for your genuine reply unlike others.


"
Settling an unusual lawsuit, Visa affliates have agreed to clear the credit rating of a woman who gambled away more than $70,000 on the Net and to warn consumers of the legal risks of using credit cards to roll the dice online.

As previously reported, Cynthia Haines used her credit cards to gamble over the Internet from her home in California and was sued by her credit issuer, Providian National Bank, because of unpaid bills. She then filed a countersuit against the bank as well as Visa and MasterCard, claiming the companies were at fault for letting her gamble with credit in the first place.

The suit also alleged that Internet gambling debts couldn't be collected in California because the wagers are illegal in the first place.

In July, MasterCard settled with Haines and adopted a policy that gambling sites would have to post a notice stating that Internet gambling could be illegal in a customer's jurisdiction.

Now Visa has come to a similar agreement with Haines, according to the court agreement.

Haines will not have to pay back her debts directly. The online gambling sites that took her bets will cover them with the Visa issuing banks. The Visa merchant sites will pay Providian National Bank nearly $5,000 and will pay First Union Direct Bank $5,400.

The Visa issuing banks have agreed to clear the interest on the bets and to state that Haines's account has been paid off.

Visa was not immediately available for comment.

"Visa has acknowledged that Visa is not everywhere you want to be when it comes to Internet gambling transactions--in some places, like California, such transactions are illegal," Haines attorney Ira Rothken said in a statement.

Congress is considering a bill that would outlaw most forms of Net gambling. The Internet Gambling Prohibition Act, authored by Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Arizona), would update the Federal Wire Act, which prohibits taking bets over phone lines.

"We believe that Visa has made significant progress since this case started in dealing with Internet gambling transactions, and ultimately they will be in the position technologically to prohibit all such transactions in the United States if and when the Kyl bill is passed by Congress," Rothken said.

The settlement requires Visa to send nationwide cardholders and its members the following notice:

"Internet Gambling Advisory: Internet gambling may be illegal in the jurisdiction in which you are located, including locations within the United States. Visa cards may only be used for legal transactions.

"Display of a payment card logo by an online merchant does not mean that Internet gambling transactions are lawful in all jurisdictions in which the cardholder may be located."
"


tmmore
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#7 Yesterday, 08:27 PM
Who's Liable?
Senior Member
Well, the blind leading the blind is always fun to watch. :D
 

NYMinute

Member
No, they can't do a thing...
The casino will be charged back and they'll lock you out at most.
If they refer it to a collection agency, they can try to collect it but if they're unsuccessful, they'll refer it back to the original creditor and since they are out of the country, they won't come after you.
I know people who have done this and nothing happens.
Just ignore it but don't play online anymore. What you did was NOT right!!!
 

Chien

Senior Member
I, for one, hope that you'll post back on this, because I don't think that the responses that you got adequately reflect how huge, volatile and contemporary this area of law is. The fact of the matter is that NYMinute may be correct, but the law is unsettled and contradictory decisions abound.

The snide dismissal by Ohreallynow? of the Haines case cited by Kanchazi reflects a total ignorance of the issues and a waste of bandwidth. While what we have is not the best summary of that action (which, incidentally, was a California case) Haines was formative, because it galvanized actions by credit card issuers, banks and any entity engaged in wire transfers to make what efforts they could to be "non-participants" in Internet gambling. Entities such as Visa, Mastercard and PayPal now refuse to process transactions.

Just a very small number of points:
Since that particular summary was written, Congress has overwhelmingly passed the Internet Gambling Prohibition Act and sent it to the Senate.

The Dept of Justice did and continues to consider any form of Internet gambling to be illegal, based on the existing Wire Act, but, in another formative case, a federal judge in New Orleans held to the contrary and found that it was only applicable to sports betting.

The US is at odds with the rest of the world in that, despite the Department of Justice, the World Trade Organization has ruled that the US "must not block gambling sites overseas". Extension of US policy could subject it to WTO sanctions.

But let's take the issues from macrocosmic to microcosmic and look at your case. You say that gambling is illegal in California. I'll skip the easy targets like the Indian casinos, the card clubs in Gardena and the California lottery. California lists 11 named games, including "21" and any "banking or percentage game" as illegal. The Penal Code proscribes sport betting. But other wagers are not specifically proscribed. On that basis, one could argue that it's not illegal to play poker for money. Your shield may not be as big as you think it is.

Then, there's the way that you "bought in". A number of courts have held an EFT transaction to be the equivalent of a transaction by check in various instances. If you had gone to Las Vegas and done the same thing, there is no question under present law that you could not be sued for your gambling debt in California but, issuance of a "stop pay" instrument, absent a valid dispute, is a "per se" violation of Calif. Civil Code §1719. It subjects you to liability for the amount of the check and treble damages of $1,500 per instrument, if the recipiemt fully complies with the Code section. And, where you committed the act, in Las Vegas, gambling would be legal and you'd be toast in California later on. You could be sued on that basis.

Personally, I think that the reason that NYMinute's friends walked is not because the creditor was out of the country (that's no necessary deterent) but because the creditor didn't want to "test the waters" on a single small case, when the environment is foggy and a multi-billion dollar, world-wide industry is involved.

Hope you're as fortunate, because there is no question that you were morally wrong. It just remains to be seen if someone will test whether you were legally wrong as well.
 
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