Chien, D.G. or DC, possible to remove a judgment?

klhofbauer · Mar 25, 2006

Chien, D.G. or DC, possible to remove a judgment? *UPDATE*

What is the name of your state? Arizona

Chien, I noticed that you had posted this on another question:

If you pay a judgment, the judgment creditor must "satisfy" or "release" it with the court. Then, your credit report will still carry a line item like "judgment - paid" or "judgment - satisfied". But it will still show that there was a judgment (or judgments). Creditors will tell you that there is nothing that they can do about that, but it's not true. If you're told that, it's by someone who is being lazy or just doesn't know more.

A cooperative creditor can work with you to eliminate the tradeline on your report, but the operative word is "cooperative". That's why working with the attorney who has the judgment, despite your feelings, is not a bad idea. Because, to erase the tradeline, you must first vacate the judgment.

My situation: I have a Stipulated Judgment from an Attorney for Citibank. I've never denied it, and have 1 more month to have it paid off. It was entered into in July 2004 with payments of 268.75 for 24 months. I've been paying 300 for 20 months, and will have it paid off early. (The reason for the SJ is simply both my husband & I got laid off 3 months after we bought our house; and I took a salary cut of 10K when I went back to work. It was rough going, we were 1 week away from foreclosure - and trying to save our house was what we decided to do over paying CC's. In the past 3 years, I've gotten everything turned around, a savings account, and all of our other CC's are paid off or down to a reasonable balance with low interest rates.)

My questions are:

1. This is probably "wishful thinking", but, since I've been, I guess, a "good customer" - paying more than the agreed upon amount and paying this off early - do I have any chance at all of trying to get the judgment removed from mine & my husband's CR's? (Even though the Citibank was in my name for 14 years, and every. single. bill. was MY NAME ONLY for all those years, because AZ is a CP state, they added my husband to the judgment. Card originated in FL, but we moved & defaulted in AZ).

2. If I cannot get it removed from my report, what about at least my husband's? He was only EVER an "Authorized User". As I said, I have statements from Citibank dating back to 1995 - and every single one of them was ever, EVER in my name only. (yes, I keep paperwork that far back. Organized, put in folders, filed in boxes in the attic).

3. Finally, and I hope no one laughs too much over this... but, I have extremely appreciated the decency, professionalism, courtesy and the treatment that I received from the Attorney practicing here in AZ, and the Lawyer Aid who has the "case" up in Minnesota. Questions always answered, prompt return of phone calls, etc. Would it be wrong to write a simply letter to the "head attorney" - for lack of a better word - with just a note letting them know that I appreciated not being yelled at, called names, etc? (and I've dealt with some of those DC's who put you in tears).

Thank you for your help.

KH

TigerD · Mar 25, 2006

klhofbauer said:
What is the name of your state? My situation: I have a Stipulated Judgment from an Attorney for Citibank. I've never denied it, and have 1 more month to have it paid off. It was entered into in July 2004 with payments of 268.75 for 24 months. I've been paying 300 for 20 months, and will have it paid off early. (The reason for the SJ is simply both my husband & I got laid off 3 months after we bought our house; and I took a salary cut of 10K when I went back to work. It was rough going, we were 1 week away from foreclosure - and trying to save our house was what we decided to do over paying CC's. In the past 3 years, I've gotten everything turned around, a savings account, and all of our other CC's are paid off or down to a reasonable balance with low interest rates.)

Wow! That's great. I am always happy when good people recover from the little bumps in life's road.

klhofbauer said:
1. This is probably "wishful thinking", but, since I've been, I guess, a "good customer" - paying more than the agreed upon amount and paying this off early - do I have any chance at all of trying to get the judgment removed from mine & my husband's CR's?

While you have definitely shown character and responsibility, I think the chance at having it removed is small. That doesn't mean not to try -- just don't expect it.

klhofbauer said:
(Even though the Citibank was in my name for 14 years, and every. single. bill. was MY NAME ONLY for all those years, because AZ is a CP state, they added my husband to the judgment. Card originated in FL, but we moved & defaulted in AZ).

I understand the frustration, but the time to raise that issue was before the stipulation of judgment. After y'all agreed to the judgment and paid it off, it is a little late to contest the terms.

klhofbauer said:
2. If I cannot get it removed from my report, what about at least my husband's? He was only EVER an "Authorized User". As I said, I have statements from Citibank dating back to 1995 - and every single one of them was ever, EVER in my name only. (yes, I keep paperwork that far back. Organized, put in folders, filed in boxes in the attic).

Want to help me organize my personal files? Unfortunately the judgment trumphs any of that paperwork. It sounds like you could have made that case prior to stipulating, but it is too late to raise the issue.

klhofbauer said:
3. Finally, and I hope no one laughs too much over this... but, I have extremely appreciated the decency, professionalism, courtesy and the treatment that I received from the Attorney practicing here in AZ, and the Lawyer Aid who has the "case" up in Minnesota. Questions always answered, prompt return of phone calls, etc. Would it be wrong to write a simply letter to the "head attorney" - for lack of a better word - with just a note letting them know that I appreciated not being yelled at, called names, etc? (and I've dealt with some of those DC's who put you in tears).

I am positive that they would appreciate such a letter. However, I am going to caution you against sending it before you complete everything on your case. The reason is it can look like puffery when you are also asking for the firm to vacate the judgment against you.

I don't know if the firm will vacate the judgment. They might if you ask. They might not. You may be successful in cashing in some of the good will you have built to that end. Talk to the attorney and follow it up with a letter.

Chien can address the details on what the process is to vacate a judgment better than I. I know he posted something about it in the past.

Good luck and congrats on recovering.

DC

Chien · Mar 25, 2006

Contrary to what was once asserted on this forum - that DC and I were the same person, posting under different names and playing "good cop - bad cop" - it's not true. And DG is the consistently courteous and knowledgable voice of reason, who has been posting longer than either DC or I. So this response is just mine. I leave the others to speak for themselves.

Q. do I have any chance at all of trying to get the judgment removed from mine & my husband's CR's?

A. Yes, it's been done three times to my knowledge in the few months that's I've posted here. It can take a litlle extra work, and it does require the creditor's cooperation (meaning I think I'm also answering your 3rd question too). There is nothing wrong with maintaining an amicable relation with one charged with enforcing a creditor's rights. We appreciate it. We don't start out by treating any collection as a personal war with the debtor; debtor's are the ones who make it that way or not. In your case, if these people have treated you with respect and courtesy, you lose nothing by letting them know that's appreciated. And tell them what you've posted here. It can't hurt in making them agreeable to your ultimate request.

Some background may help to understand the quote and the reason for the steps to achieve your goal. CAs may report payment delinquencies to CRAs, but judgment information comes in in another way. CRAs also add to their databases by gathering public record information in bulk. They have arrangements with courts, county recorders, Secretaries of State etc. to get records of cases filed, judgments entered, liens filed, financing statements etc. They get the data by computer tape "drops", or electronic transmissions or any other efficient bulk means. Everything that's gathered is a public record at that point, so anyone can see it anyway.

When a judgment is satisfied, it's recorded with the court as satisfied, and that's the information that the CRA ultimately gets. The "trick", if you will, to making the tradeline go away is making the court record go away. If there is no record of the court case having been litigated and going to judgment, the CRA's record has no basis. It cannot be verified and legally must be deleted. If you're with me so far, this is what must be done (cut & paste from an old thread):

Once the judgment was paid, litigants enter into a Stipulation to Vacate the Judgment, Reinstate the Case and Dismiss with Prejudice, all at the same time. Parties to litigation can do many things by mutual agreement, and this is one. The court doesn't care one way or another, but this Stipulation would accomplish what you want. It's just that it's done by agreement.

The Stipulation says (1) the judgment never happened and we're re-activating this case to let the defendant dispute the claim BUT, (2) at the same time, we're dismissing the case with no right to re-file and as if it never happened. It's like a time machine that takes everyone back to the day before the case started.

Once the case AND the judgment are gone, the CRA record has no basis. If only the case is gone (dismissed), the judgment still stays, and the consequences of that have been explained. If you had the opportunity and ability to vacate the judgment, that takes you back to the day after the case started and gives you a chance to re-litigate the claim. The process may sound involved but it's actually simple.

Litigants often talk about "vacating a judgment". Vacating a judgment only takes you back to the day after the case started and allows you to do it again. Vacating the judgment and then dismissing the Complaint takes you back to the day before it started. Dismissing the Complaint with prejudice says that it cannot be re-started. Thus, when the Court record disappears, the CRA tradeline must follow.

Creditor's aren't required to agree to vacate a judgment. It's a favor and courtesy to you. That's why I continue to talk about "cooperation". The debtor who is continually contentious, evasive, adversarial and duplicitious is likely to have a judgment remain a tradeline for the full life of the judgment just because nobody gives a damn if credit costs them more or they're carrying that burden around.

And by the way, the Stipulation to which I refer can be written in about 2-3 sentences. The document isn't complicated.

If you have additional questions, even about the form, post back. Good luck
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Edit: Duration of tradeline edited in light of JETX's correction of potential existence.

Debt Guy · Mar 25, 2006

Well, I don't have a lot to add -- just a couple of ideas to consider.

I would certainly ask the attorney to do as Chien suggests. Remember that this will be some effort on their part and often they are not anxious to do work for nothing. If they buck up, you might sweeten the deal a little by offering to pay any court costs for the process so they will not be out of pocket any money.

Finally, I understand you want the judgment off your credit report? Why? Yes, it hurts your credit score some but perhaps not as much as you might think. Go to www.bankrate.com and poke around. They have a score simulator program that will let you play with the various factors and see what impact it has.

Good luck to you.

Chien · Mar 26, 2006

Following DG's comments, I'd add just one more.

In the last instance that I'm aware of, I too thought the attorneys would want "something extra" for the cooperation and assistance. I even suggested "sweetening" the contemplated settlement, as an inducement But I also sent the OP a "template" to suggest what should be done. To my knowledge, the OP modified that for the state and the case and it was accepted by cousel "as is". The filing fee would be minimal. Cooperation and good relations go a long way

As far as determining whether or not to do it at all (or what to do if "your" attorneys decline), DG's link is a very good one and the final decision is yours. I hope we've adequately answered your question.

klhofbauer · Mar 26, 2006

debtcollector` said:
Wow! That's great. I am always happy when good people recover from the little bumps in life's road.

While you have definitely shown character and responsibility, I think the chance at having it removed is small. That doesn't mean not to try -- just don't expect it.

I understand the frustration, but the time to raise that issue was before the stipulation of judgment. After y'all agreed to the judgment and paid it off, it is a little late to contest the terms.

Want to help me organize my personal files? Unfortunately the judgment trumphs any of that paperwork. It sounds like you could have made that case prior to stipulating, but it is too late to raise the issue.

I am positive that they would appreciate such a letter. However, I am going to caution you against sending it before you complete everything on your case. The reason is it can look like puffery when you are also asking for the firm to vacate the judgment against you.

I don't know if the firm will vacate the judgment. They might if you ask. They might not. You may be successful in cashing in some of the good will you have built to that end. Talk to the attorney and follow it up with a letter.

Chien can address the details on what the process is to vacate a judgment better than I. I know he posted something about it in the past.

Good luck and congrats on recovering.

DC

DC -

Thank you for responding. I appreciate it, even though I don't necessarily like the answers! I guess this is just something we will have to deal with for the next 7 years. Hopefully we can figure things out when it comes time to look for cars, taking out a home equity, etc. (regarding interest rates). We know we are going to need vehicles sooner than later - our cars are 10 & 17 yrs. old.. and with a judgment, trying to get approved for a loan, probably won't happen.

Regarding my husband being on the suit. When it was filed in July 04, I tried to argue the point that it was NOT his account, he was only ever an authorized user, and I could prove it (I remember making the call in 94 even, right after he & I got married to add him to the card!). I got the "AZ is a community property state, so while he was not the account holder, even though I used the card after moving to AZ in 2001, he was on the Suit".

I was, quite honestly, more afraid of wage garnishment than anything else. We were just getting on a mortgage repayment plan so we didn't lose the house, and a wage garnishment would have forced us into bankruptcy.

Regarding sending a "letter of sorts" - I didn't intend to send anything until the satisfaction notice was filed. I know it probably sounds strange to anyone reading this post, and I'll be the first to say I can be a 100% b*tch and complain about service to top management, but, on the flip side, I also take the time to write a letter or speak to supervisors about good customer service. And, quite honestly, Debt Collections are about "customer service".

I don't know if this is appropriate, if not, hopefully a mod will remove it - but the law firm is Balogh Becker, LTD.

Again, DC, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate the help.

KH

PS: *laugh* about the personnel files... uh, nah... mine go through transformation when I file taxes... before that, paperwork is in every room of the house... so maybe it's "DIS-organization??!! LOL

klhofbauer · Mar 26, 2006

Chien said:
Contrary to what was once asserted on this forum - that DC and I were the same person, posting under different names and playing "good cop - bad cop" - it's not true. And DG is the consistently courteous and knowledgable voice of reason, who has been posting longer than either DC or I. So this response is just mine. I leave the others to speak for themselves.

Q. do I have any chance at all of trying to get the judgment removed from mine & my husband's CR's?

A. Yes, it's been done three times to my knowledge in the few months that's I've posted here. It can take a litlle extra work, and it does require the creditor's cooperation (meaning I think I'm also answering your 3rd question too). There is nothing wrong with maintaining an amicable relation with one charged with enforcing a creditor's rights. We appreciate it. We don't start out by treating any collection as a personal war with the debtor; debtor's are the ones who make it that way or not. In your case, if these people have treated you with respect and courtesy, you lose nothing by letting them know that's appreciated. And tell them what you've posted here. It can't hurt in making them agreeable to your ultimate request.

Some background may help to understand the quote and the reason for the steps to achieve your goal. CAs may report payment delinquencies to CRAs, but judgment information comes in in another way. CRAs also add to their databases by gathering public record information in bulk. They have arrangements with courts, county recorders, Secretaries of State etc. to get records of cases filed, judgments entered, liens filed, financing statements etc. They get the data by computer tape "drops", or electronic transmissions or any other efficient bulk means. Everything that's gathered is a public record at that point, so anyone can see it anyway.

When a judgment is satisfied, it's recorded with the court as satisfied, and that's the information that the CRA ultimately gets. The "trick", if you will, to making the tradeline go away is making the court record go away. If there is no record of the court case having been litigated and going to judgment, the CRA's record has no basis. It cannot be verified and legally must be deleted. If you're with me so far, this is what must be done (cut & paste from an old thread):

Once the judgment was paid, litigants enter into a Stipulation to Vacate the Judgment, Reinstate the Case and Dismiss with Prejudice, all at the same time. Parties to litigation can do many things by mutual agreement, and this is one. The court doesn't care one way or another, but this Stipulation would accomplish what you want. It's just that it's done by agreement.

The Stipulation says (1) the judgment never happened and we're re-activating this case to let the defendant dispute the claim BUT, (2) at the same time, we're dismissing the case with no right to re-file and as if it never happened. It's like a time machine that takes everyone back to the day before the case started.

Once the case AND the judgment are gone, the CRA record has no basis. If only the case is gone (dismissed), the judgment still stays, and the consequences of that have been explained. If you had the opportunity and ability to vacate the judgment, that takes you back to the day after the case started and gives you a chance to re-litigate the claim. The process may sound involved but it's actually simple.

Litigants often talk about "vacating a judgment". Vacating a judgment only takes you back to the day after the case started and allows you to do it again. Vacating the judgment and then dismissing the Complaint takes you back to the day before it started. Dismissing the Complaint with prejudice says that it cannot be re-started. Thus, when the Court record disappears, the CRA tradeline must follow.

Creditor's aren't required to agree to vacate a judgment. It's a favor and courtesy to you. That's why I continue to talk about "cooperation". The debtor who is continually contentious, evasive, adversarial and duplicitious is likely to have a judgment remain a tradeline for the full life of the judgment just because nobody gives a damn if credit costs them more or they're carrying that burden around.

And by the way, the Stipulation to which I refer can be written in about 2-3 sentences. The document isn't complicated.

If you have additional questions, even about the form, post back. Good luck
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Duration of tradeline edited in light of JETX's correction of potential existence.

Chien,

Thank you for responding with this. I'm unsure of your first paragraph, however, I'll simply state that I've read many responses from the 3 of you over the past months and/or years on this forum - and in addition to LIR and one or two others - the 3 of you are most qualified, factual and thorough in your responses. Hence, I asked the 3 of you for your thoughts/opinions/comments.

I've copied this thread into a text file so that when I go to make my last payment, I can talk this over with the Aide. I actually don't talk with the attorney any longer here in AZ - instead, I just call up to Minnesota with my monthly check # & the amount I want to pay - and the Aide takes the information. Once I paid the attorney here in AZ for a year, they moved the files up to MN. I am "assuming" that when this is paid off that everything needs to be filed here at the same courthouse.

Questions:

1. Is there some type of "time limit" on how long before the "Satisfaction" is filed? In other words.. I'll have this paid off 4/30/06. Do they wait a month? 2 months? 6 months? I ask because, if we have this on our reports for the next 7 years, I would at least like the 7 years to start immediately! *laugh* Not wait til September to start! My reporting period to be 5/1/06 til 5/1/13

2. Is there a recommendation that you can give me on how to word a request such as this? Or, is it better to simply just call the attorney here in AZ and initiate a discussion regarding this procedure?

If you have the time and can let me know the answers above, thank you.

As with DC - thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. It's very much appreciated.

KH

klhofbauer · Mar 26, 2006

Debt Guy said:
Well, I don't have a lot to add -- just a couple of ideas to consider.

I would certainly ask the attorney to do as Chien suggests. Remember that this will be some effort on their part and often they are not anxious to do work for nothing. If they buck up, you might sweeten the deal a little by offering to pay any court costs for the process so they will not be out of pocket any money.

Finally, I understand you want the judgment off your credit report? Why? Yes, it hurts your credit score some but perhaps not as much as you might think. Go to www.bankrate.com and poke around. They have a score simulator program that will let you play with the various factors and see what impact it has.

Good luck to you.

Debt Guy,

Thank you for this link - it's great! It's a bookmark now. I'll definitely be "poking around" and reading a lot of information.

When everything is laid on the table, having it on our CR's for the next 7 years is honestly something that CAN be "lived with", even though I really don't LIKE the idea of having to do so. To some people it might be - however:

1. In 7 years our college loans will be paid off.
2. In 7 years we will have collateral and the deed free & clear on our 40 acres of land we bought as an investment. (40 acres bought for 6 hundred per acre; just got a letter from real estate agent offering to list it. It is now selling for - 3 to 5 THOUSAND per acre. Land is located south of Las Vegas near Kingman, AZ - very, very hot property)
3. In 7 years the "mortgage repayment plan" we were on for our mortgage will be off our reports and we won't have any late payments showing.
4. In 7 years the last kid is out of college and on his own - he starts next Fall & plans on being in school for 6 years to get his MBA/Dual Major.
5. In 7 years we'll only have another 14 years to pay on our mortgage. We just put ourselves on a bi-monthly "Accelerated Payment Plan". I don't understand why people don't do this! By doing so, homeowners can save tens of thousands of dollars in interest, and knock YEARS off their loans! (LOL.. I saw a segment on The Early Show about this, called up our lender just for sh*ts and giggles to inquire.)

All of this mess that we ended up in, is unfortunate. Desparate people do desparate things. No, trying to live off our CC's to pay the mortage, bills, food while we were both laid off was not the best decision. It was the ONLY decision we had to make at the time. My main concerns are our vehicles & health care now. In the past 18 months, we've put over 5,000 into both of them. When it starts to get expensive to maintain your vehicles, it's time to start thinking about newer ones. Unfortunately.

I hope that people realize, from collectors to debtors that things DO happen to decent people. Collectors may have "heard that story before" but it doesn't mean that everyone is the same. Show the debtor some respect & courtesy - you really DO "catch more flies with honey". And, as "frightening" and "playing catch me if you can" is to a debtor - don't avoid things. Take care of them - get a second job. Trim down finances (if you can't afford to pay your bills, then why are you online?) - and for heaven's sake, when you say you are going to pay, pay on time. *Communicate*

So, as I said to DC and Chien, thank you for taking the time to reply. I do appreciate it.

KH

Chien · Mar 26, 2006

(OP - I'm not clear about which "first paragraph" in which response is unclear. If you mean the reference to DC and I, that was just an "inside joke" for DC. Because we shared similar opinons on some subjects, a poster once asserted that we were the same person posting under different names. If that was the reference, just ignore it; it was unnecessary and antecdotal. If you have another question for me, please reference it more specifically and in the reasonably foreseeable future. I expect to be posting less frequently on the forums.)

Q. Is there some type of "time limit" on how long before the "Satisfaction" is filed?

A. In my state and in most states, there is a statutory responsibility to do it. In fact, if it's not done, generally you can go into court, show proof of payment and request the court to do what the creditor didn't. With adequate proof, it will. But as far as a finite time frame, that's hard to say, and I haven't searched AZ law (the clerk at any court could probably tell you, because that's not giving "legally advice" (which is prohibited); it's informing you of the nature of your rights. In my state, the requirement is to file "reasonably promptly" after good funds are received. That's subjective. I would say that within 30 days is ok and beyond that is too long a delay.

Q. Is there a recommendation that you can give me on how to word a request such as this?

A. Something along the lines of the following has always worked for me:

The undersigned parties to the instant action stipulate and agree that the judgment entered herein on January 1, 2000 in favor of Plaintiff [CREDITOR] and against Defendant(s) [JOHN DOE and JANE DOE, individually, jointly and severally] shall be and is vacated. The parties further stipulate and agree that, for good consideration, receipt of which is acknowledged, Plaintiff shall forthwith file a Dismissal with prejudice of the instant action and Defendant(s) shall waive any and all claims for costs.
DATED: March 26, 2006

It would be formatted as a pleading (meaning using proper court and case no. and the desgnation of the parties as named in the judgment.

A caption might be STIPULATION TO VACATE JUDGMENT AND FOR DISMISSAL; "ORDER [PROPOSED]" (portion in quotes optional)

It should include signature lines and designations for all parties to the litigation.

Following all that, if your state requires a judge to append an Order to such a filing, a sufficient one might read:

ORDER (PROPOSED)
GOOD CAUSE APPEARING, IT IS ORDERED, ADJUDGED AND DECREED that the default judgment entered herein on January 1, 2000 shall be and is vacated and Plaintiff shall be permitted to file a Dismissal of the instant action with prejudice.
DATED:

[Signature line for Judge]

If you want to PM me with an email address that will accept attachments, I'll send you a "template" formatted for "Word", but it won't have been created with any special pleading rules for your state in mind.

klhofbauer · Apr 8, 2006

****UPDATE****

Well! Things aren't quite as bad as I originally thought!

1. The judgment does NOT appear on none of the 3 CR's of my DH. *Yeah* thank heavens for small miracles. Why? I'm not going to question it. The papers were made out to me with my DH as a co-debtor. He was only an AU for the 10 years we had the CC, but AZ is a CP state. So, not sure why it doesn't also appear on his report.

2. The final payoff on the judgment was actually 100.00 less than I thought, so it's now paid off. I've got the letter asking if they would consider having it removed per Chien's steps, but am waiting a week before mailing it out. But, it's okay if they don't accept it or won't do it. Instead of the SJ coming off in 2013 like I thought, it actually falls off my CR in July 2011. I can handle the remaining 5 years.

Two years ago when I started visiting this forum, I never EVER thought things would look better financially.

Thanks guys.

KH

Chien, D.G. or DC, possible to remove a judgment?

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