rmet4nzkx Re: "Sunnyside's" Cat Trap Debacle

CALIF-LAWPRO62 · Jun 10, 2006

Prior to Sunnyside's post being closed, you quoted Sunnyside's final entry, and then quoted and said:

Today, 11:03 AM
rmet4nzkx
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 16,382

Kitty is a fur covered mammal, put a lock on your door!

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Originally Posted by sunnyside
I guess I can sue the Department of Animal Control as a party to the crime of theft too. They're instigating people to trap harmless cats? What kind of BS is that? I very well understand that trapping dogs, or chipmunks, or squirrels, or skunks is ok since they can be carriers of rabies. I don't want to get bitten by these animals. They can cause death. My cat kills me with his constant purring though and who would want to trap such an animal? My cat doesn't harm any other animals, doesn't crap or pee in my neigbor's yard. I know that for a fact because I keep tab of him when he's out. So what legal reason can anyone conjure for trapping someone else's cat? Oh, ya!! Just because they've got nothing better thing to do than invade someone else's right like ours? Thanks to IAAL, I now KNOW THOSE RIGHTS.

And you wrote - -

"Good Grief!
If the humane society or similar organization gave him a trap and your "innocent" property wandered onto his property and was trapped in a "live" trap, which side do you believe has more weight? Look up the concept of public policy. What if he was trapping raccoons that carry disease and injure property? Why do you think that IAAL didn't give you any CA codes? I had a cat break through a window screen in my basement, the cat wandered through the finished basement and then pushed it's way into the sub basement, all it had to do was turn around and leave the same way it came in but it didn't, It died in the sub basement, it was a stray but it could have been yours." (emphasis added)

You wanted codes?
Section 4005 Fish and Game Code of Regulations

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, every person, other than a fur dealer, who traps fur-bearing mammals or non-game mammals, designated by the commission or who sells raw furs of those mammals, shall procure a trapping license. "Raw fur" means any fur, pelt, or skin that has not been tanned or cured, except that salt-cured or sun-cured pelts are raw furs.

(b) The department shall develop standards that are necessary to ensure the competence and proficiency of applicants for a trapping license. No person shall be issued a license until he or she has passed a test of his or her knowledge and skill in this field.

(c) Persons trapping mammals in accordance with Section 4152 or 4180 are not required to procure a trapping license except when providing trapping services for profit.

(d) No raw furs taken by persons providing trapping services for profit may be sold.

(e) Officers or employees of federal, county, or city agencies or the department, when acting in their official capacities, or officers or employees of the Department of Food and Agriculture when acting pursuant to the Food and Agricultural Code pertaining to pests or pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 6021) of Chapter 9 of Part 1 of Division 4 of the Food and Agricultural Code, are exempt from the license requirement of this section.

Section 4152.

Except as provided in Section 4005, non-game mammals and black-tailed jackrabbits, muskrats, and red fox squirrels that are found to be injuring growing crops or other property may be taken at any time or in any manner in accordance with this code by the owner or tenant of the premises or employees thereof, except that if leghold steel-jawed traps are used to take those mammals, the traps and the use thereof shall be in accordance with subdivisions (a), (b), and (d) of Section 4004. They may also be taken by officers or employees of the Department of Food and Agriculture or by federal, county, or city, officers or employees when acting in their official capacities pursuant to the provisions of the Food and Agricultural Code pertaining to pests, or pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 6021 of Chapter 9 of Part 1 of Division 4 of the Food and Agricultural Code. Persons taking mammals in accordance with this section are exempt from the requirements of Section 3007. Raw furs, as defined in Section 4005, that are taken under this section, may not be sold. Traps used pursuant to this section shall be inspected and all animals in the trap shall be removed at least once daily. The inspection and removal shall be done by the person who sets the trap or the owner of the land where the trap is set or an agent of either.

Section4180.

Except as provided for in Section 4005, fur-bearing mammals that are injuring property may be taken at any time and in any manner in accordance with this code, except that if leghold steel-jawed traps are used to take those mammals, the traps and the use thereof shall be in accordance with subdivisions (a), (b), and (d) of Section 4004. Raw furs, as defined in Section 4005, that are taken under this section, may not be sold.

Traps used pursuant to this section shall be inspected and all animals in the trap shall be removed at least once daily. The inspection and removal shall be done by the person who sets the trap or the owner of the land where the trap is set or an agent of either.

My response:

Do you see your highlighted question, above? Perhaps it's because there are NO codes concerning "domesticated" animals. I think you're mixing apples and oranges by comparing "fur-bearing" with the fact that domesticated cats and dogs have fur, with those "designated" animals whose fur is traditionally 'harvested' for clothing; e.g., full length fur coats.

Also, "domesticated cats and dogs" are NOT animals "designated by the [Fish and Game] commission." Therefore, the Fish & Game statutes that you have quoted are innapposite, and inapplicable, to Sunnyside's situation and problem; i.e., the quoted statutes are not on point, and were not intended to control "domesticated" animals.

Cats and dogs are controlled by the Municipal Codes of the various, and many, California counties, including "trapping." State law does not cover domestic animals - - except the "cruelty" and "experimentation" statutes, which is not the case in Sunnyside's thread.

Final point: The neighbor has a right to trap animals that are a nuisance; e.g., a rabid or dangerous animal. However, this matter became a Civil matter, at the very least, when Sunnyside's neighbor found out that Sunnyside and her husband were the owners of that domestic cat (personal property), attempted to reclaim their cat from the neighbor, and the neighbor refused to immediately release that property, even if that "trapping" lasted for a minute AFTER the neighbor knew, or should and could have known, who owned that cat. Doing so, as the neighbor did, is called "conversion of property" - - which is actionable.

So, when was the last time you saw a calico cat fur jacket? I trust I have answered your above highlighted question.

IAAL

Shel77 · Jun 10, 2006

"So, when was the last time you saw a calico cat fur jacket?"

Come on they have those all over china, I think you can even get them on Ebay, LOL.

rmet4nzkx · Jun 10, 2006

CALIF-LAWPRO62 said:
Prior to Sunnyside's post being closed, you quoted Sunnyside's final entry, and then quoted and said:

Today, 11:03 AM
rmet4nzkx
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 16,382

Kitty is a fur covered mammal, put a lock on your door!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And you wrote - -

My response:

Do you see your highlighted question, above? Perhaps it's because there are NO codes concerning "domesticated" animals. I think you're mixing apples and oranges by comparing "fur-bearing" with the fact that domesticated cats and dogs have fur, with those "designated" animals whose fur is traditionally 'harvested' for clothing; e.g., full length fur coats.

Also, "domesticated cats and dogs" are NOT animals "designated by the [Fish and Game] commission." Therefore, the Fish & Game statutes that you have quoted are innapposite, and inapplicable, to Sunnyside's situation and problem; i.e., the quoted statutes are not on point, and were not intended to control "domesticated" animals.

Cats and dogs are controlled by the Municipal Codes of the various, and many, California counties. State law does not cover domestic animals - - except the "cruelty" and "experimentation" statutes, which is not the case in Sunnyside's thread.

Final point: The neighbor has a right to trap animals that are a nuisance; e.g., a rabid or dangerous animal. However, this matter became a Civil matter, at the very least, when Sunnyside's neighbor found out that Sunnyside and her husband were the owners of that domestic cat (personal property), attempted to reclaim their cat, and the neighbor refused to immediately release that property, even if that "trapping" lasted for a minute AFTER the neighbor knew who owned that cat. Doing so, as the neighbor did, is called "conversion of property" - - which is actionable.

So, when was the last time you saw a calico cat fur jacket? I trust I have answered your above highlighted question.

IAAL

We don't know where she lives? You live in So CA, I live in No CA, the humane society and county animal control up here hand out these traps out all the time to humanely trap, bobcats, mtn. lions, raccoons and opossums. In the same neighborhood where the stray cat died in my basement we had a raccoon that was about 35 lbs and bold as could be he even waltzed around the neighborhood during the day and raided the pet food at night fighting with dogs and cats over their food, you couldn't even let a child play in a fenced yard. A stray or domesticated cat can be hit by a car and there are CA Codes re the sale of domestic cat and dog pelts so someone has done it before!

If it makes you feel better, last week a neighbor who gets upset when I step on a snail

captured with her bare hands the sweetist kitty and confined him in the pool house while she inquired after the owner because the cat had found a baby bird that had fallen out of it's nest and was abandoned by it's parents, she was upset, and said she didn't mind if the cat got mice but not birds, we all explained to her that is what cats do, that is their mission in life, after several told her the same thing she released the poor thing who still trustingly jumped into her arms at the next encounter.

California Consolidated Cat Laws
California Food and Agricultural Code (Formerly Agricultural Code. ... (1) Domestic cats' temperaments range from completely docile indoor pets to ...
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stuscacalfishgcode3005_9_31766.htm

Actually

ANIMAL rights activist Skye Carnie is urging the community to check labels
of suspect cat fur accessories after discovering real cat fur in a local
business last week.

According to Skye, she dropped into a store and noticed there were several
plastic cat ornaments that looked "very real".

"When I picked them up I noticed they were real cat fur - I've had cats
all my life so I know the distinct difference between cat and rabbit fur,"
Skye said.
...
Skye's discovery coincides with the Humane Society International (HIS)
findings of domestic cat and dog fur made in China and Korea on sale in
two stores in Sydney.

full story:
http://orange.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&category=general news&story_id=240785&y=2003&m=7

-http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=1533368
They also trap them for medical research which is against the law.

rmet4nzkx · Jun 10, 2006

I am sorry that I misattributed your intent but the thread was gone before I could edit it.
I just think that Sunny's interest should focus on keeping her cat safe, if they are afraid of what might happen to their cat when out doors, keep it inside and avoid the risk. They would rather risk their kitty getting hit by a car similar risk to being humanely live trapped, than make sure their latch is properly working.

Cats and dogs were meant to be outside, in each instance the owner has different responsibilities and different risks.
My Innocent cat was killed by a colleague's revengeful client who had threatened me, while the cat was in my yard while I was away and nothing could be done.

leeleeblue · Jun 10, 2006

So, when was the last time you saw a calico cat fur jacket

They're selling cat fur bags on ioffer.com, so why not a jacket to go with it??

weenor · Jun 10, 2006

rmet4nzkx said:
I am sorry that I misattributed your intent but the thread was gone before I could edit it.
I just think that Sunny's interest should focus on keeping her cat safe, if they are afraid of what might happen to their cat when out doors, keep it inside and avoid the risk. They would rather risk their kitty getting hit by a car similar risk to being humanely live trapped, than make sure their latch is properly working.
Cats and dogs were meant to be outside, in each instance the owner has different responsibilities and different risks.
My Innocent cat was killed by a colleague's revengeful client who had threatened me, while the cat was in my yard while I was away and nothing could be done.

That's why my cats from birth stay in the house. What they don't know won't hurt them and they are perfectly content with the world inside. I lost too many pets...to wayward vehicles. Unfortunately for Sunny, once a cat gets the taste of freedom it is virtually impossible to keep inside. Better luck with the next one.

rmet4nzkx · Jun 10, 2006

CA Penal Code
598a. (a) Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor who kills any dog
or cat with the sole intent of selling or giving away the pelt of
such animal.
(b) Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor who possesses, imports
into this state, sells, buys, gives away or accepts any pelt of a
dog or cat with the sole intent of selling or giving away the pelt of
the dog or cat, or who possesses, imports into this state, sells,
buys, gives away, or accepts any dog or cat, with the sole intent of
killing or having killed such dog or cat for the purpose of selling
or giving away the pelt of such animal.

598b. (a) Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor who possesses,
imports into, or exports from, this state, sells, buys, gives away,
or accepts any carcass or part of any carcass of any animal
traditionally or commonly kept as a pet or companion with the intent
of using or having another person use any part of that carcass for
food.
(b) Every person is guilty of a misdemeanor who possesses, imports
into, or exports from, this state, sells, buys, gives away, or
accepts any animal traditionally or commonly kept as a pet or
companion with the intent of killing or having another person kill
that animal for the purpose of using or having another person use any
part of the animal for food.
(c) This section shall not be construed to interfere with the
production, marketing, or disposal of any livestock, poultry, fish,
shellfish, or any other agricultural commodity produced in this
state. Nor shall this section be construed to interfere with the
lawful killing of wildlife, or the lawful killing of any other animal
under the laws of this state pertaining to game animals.

PghREA · Jun 10, 2006

rmet4nzkx said:
I am sorry that I misattributed your intent but the thread was gone before I could edit it.
I just think that Sunny's interest should focus on keeping her cat safe, if they are afraid of what might happen to their cat when out doors, keep it inside and avoid the risk. They would rather risk their kitty getting hit by a car similar risk to being humanely live trapped, than make sure their latch is properly working.
Cats and dogs were meant to be outside, in each instance the owner has different responsibilities and different risks.
My Innocent cat was killed by a colleague's revengeful client who had threatened me, while the cat was in my yard while I was away and nothing could be done.

This is basically what I was trying to convey in my posts - the owner is responsible for keeping his cat safe.

rmet4nzkx Re: "Sunnyside's" Cat Trap Debacle

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