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18+ Child has Guardianship forced on him by lawyer for... messy house?!

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RG2

Junior Member
That part does concern me a bit. Attorneys are no different than any other human beings. However, what you seem to be glossing over is the fact that it appears that the mother returning to the home does depend on it being thoroughly cleaned up. Therefore the lawyer could be looking out for mom.
But what's with the guardianship threat to the son? I'm lost on that. The son is the main person cleaning things up, despite his own struggles.
Shouldn't the criteria with the condition of the house be up to an official agency like Adult Protective Services, or code enforcement (even though I saw nothing that would have violated any codes that I know of, - if I wanted to let my own house get messy, isn't that my prerogative as well?), not this lawyer with this cleaning crew he insists sorts through their home while they "leave"? If somebody suggested somebody come in my house and do that, and trying to use threats against me to facilitate such, I be suing them like crazy.
 
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RG2

Junior Member
You don't have to have rotting food to have a code violation.

I went back and reread your first post. It honestly sounds like a description of every episode of Hoarders ever aired.
How so? My house has been worse at times! I totally see the convenience of leaving things out that you are currently using or working on, it helps you function quicker, rather than constantly having to pull things out of folders and cabinets back and forth. All people function differently, and I see how this makes things much more convenient for them.
Hoarding is the excessive stashing of completely unnecessary items that have no practical use for the person, to the point of *harming* that person's functioning. There is a huge difference. And from a legal perspective, how is it anyone's business but the homeowner's, regardless? The way you deal with a true hoarding situation is with KINDNESS, understanding, psychological counseling and gradual help with an underlying psychological condition that is causing the hoarding, not threatening the person. They have been leaving things out because it's more convenient and easy to access with constant doctor's appointments and meetings, along with the son feeling sick from his leukemia treatments. What a-hole would threaten a family like this, threatening to take away rights all Americans should have on their own property? That is certainly not helping any situation. Life or death is much more important than a messy house that wasn't actively hurting anyone. Getting the mother home, while important, also is not some emergency that requires threats, seeing as she is getting full-time care at the rehabilitation center, more so than she would at home with the rest of the family's health issues, and everything else happening.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I totally see the convenience of leaving things out that you are currently using or working on ...
That's NOT what you described in your first post.

it helps you function quicker, rather than constantly having to pull things out of folders and cabinets back and forth. All people function differently, and I see how this makes things much more convenient for them.
Hoarding is the excessive stashing of completely unnecessary items that have no practical use for the person, to the point of *harming* that person's functioning. There is a huge difference. And from a legal perspective, how is it anyone's business but the homeowner's, regardless? The way you deal with a true hoarding situation is with KINDNESS, understanding, psychological counseling and gradual help with an underlying psychological condition that is causing the hoarding, not threatening the person. They have been leaving things out because it's more convenient and easy to access with constant doctor's appointments and meetings, along with the son feeling sick from his leukemia treatments. What a-hole would threaten a family like this, threatening to take away rights all Americans should have on their own property? That is certainly not helping any situation. Life or death is much more important than a messy house that wasn't actively hurting anyone. Getting the mother home, while important, also is not some emergency that requires threats, seeing as she is getting full-time care at the rehabilitation center, more so than she would at home with the rest of the family's health issues, and everything else happening.
Great questions for the adult to ask his attorney.
 

RG2

Junior Member
I read it all. You don't know everything. They need to speak to their attorney and asking the attorneys questions.
They are worn out. My own advice was the father needs to ditch the control-freak lawyer completely, I don't understand why the father's own lawyer acts like he is in charge of the father, when it's supposed to be the other way around. I feel they are all being taken advantage of. The father's lawyer will not even give the father, who is Guardian for his wife, the checkbook for his wife's trust. Is that right?
The father has been trying to call his lawyer to tell him to retract this whole guardianship deal around his son. Being employed by the father, shouldn't the lawyer honor this request?

All in all, anyone that prioritizes a "mess" that violated no code, and was hurting no one, over this family's lives, is a disgusting human being. IMHO.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
They are worn out. My own advice was the father needs to ditch the control-freak lawyer completely, I don't understand why the father's own lawyer acts like he is in charge of the father, when it's supposed to be the other way around. I feel they are all being taken advantage of. The father's lawyer will not even give the father, who is Guardian for his wife, the checkbook for his wife's trust. Is that right?
The father has been trying to call his lawyer to tell him to retract this whole guardianship deal around his son. Being employed by the father, shouldn't the lawyer honor this request?

All in all, anyone that prioritizes a "mess" that violated no code, and was hurting no one, over this family's lives, is a disgusting human being. IMHO.
In MY opinion, one of the people who are actually legally involved in this should speak to their attorney.
 

RG2

Junior Member
That's NOT what you described in your first post.



Great questions for the adult to ask his attorney.
sorry, I have to go reread everything I wrote, I probably skipped a lot of things. I've been to their house several times, and the son explained why everything was the way it was, and it made perfect sense to me. They have a card table set-up in the middle of their living room, with various stacks of medical papers and blood test results, and neurology doctor papers in another pile, the mothers papers in another, for quick access when there's a phone call, or an appointment they have to rush to. they have three cats, one with medical problems of it's own, with another bunch of vet papers. the cat recently was in diabetic shock, and took 24 hour care and constant contact with vets. They have some cereal boxes left out so they can quickly grab something to eat without having to climb up and down into cupboards. They have a cat litter box in the kitchen, to prevent the cat from urinating other places, which it was doing prior. The control-freak lawyer actually had the audacity to tell them they should only have one cat and should "get rid" of the other two. I suppose maybe if the lawyer gets guardianship he can have the cats all put down at his will. The son has been saying how they want to get in enclosed litter box, but keeping it there is the best case scenario for now. He does an excellent job of taking care of the pets, and the household, with his mother not there, despite his own medical issues. He constantly admits the house is a mess, but is also disgusted that anyone is prioritizing how neat something looks over function. Or assume that because it looks messy, it impairs function, when the polar opposite is actually the case.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
sorry, I have to go reread everything I wrote, I probably skipped a lot of things. I've been to their house several times, and the son explained why everything was the way it was, and it made perfect sense to me. They have a card table set-up in the middle of their living room, with various stacks of medical papers and blood test results, and neurology doctor papers in another pile, the mothers papers in another, for quick access when there's a phone call, or an appointment they have to rush to. they have three cats, one with medical problems of it's own, with another bunch of vet papers. the cat recently was in diabetic shock, and took 24 hour care and constant contact with vets. They have some cereal boxes left out so they can quickly grab something to eat without having to climb up and down into cupboards. They have a cat litter box in the kitchen, to prevent the cat from urinating other places, which it was doing prior. The control-freak lawyer actually had the audacity to tell them they should only have one cat and should "get rid" of the other two. I suppose maybe if the lawyer gets guardianship he can have the cats all put down at his will. The son has been saying how they want to get in enclosed litter box, but keeping it there is the best case scenario for now. He does an excellent job of taking care of the pets, and the household, with his mother not there, despite his own medical issues. He constantly admits the house is a mess, but is also disgusted that anyone is prioritizing how neat something looks over function. Or assume that because it looks messy, it impairs function, when the polar opposite is actually the case.
Your attempts at whitewashing this are actually making it sound worse, not better.


ETA: I have to ask...but what happened in your new description to all this cra...stuff?

... setimental holiday decorations, important mail, bits and pieces of electronics and other items that they did not want to get lost or inadvertently thrown out by someone who had no idea what they were.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
They are worn out. My own advice was the father needs to ditch the control-freak lawyer completely, I don't understand why the father's own lawyer acts like he is in charge of the father, when it's supposed to be the other way around. I feel they are all being taken advantage of. The father's lawyer will not even give the father, who is Guardian for his wife, the checkbook for his wife's trust. Is that right?
The father has been trying to call his lawyer to tell him to retract this whole guardianship deal around his son. Being employed by the father, shouldn't the lawyer honor this request?

All in all, anyone that prioritizes a "mess" that violated no code, and was hurting no one, over this family's lives, is a disgusting human being. IMHO.
Re the bolded: It depends on who is the trustee of the trust. The checkbook should be held by the trustee, not necessarily by the person's guardian. If the dad is the trustee of the trust, or someone other than the attorney is the trustee of the trust, then the lawyer has absolutely no right to hold the checkbook for the trust. If they lawyer is the trustee of the trust, then the lawyer has the right to hold the checkbook.

Yes, if the lawyer is simply employed by the father, and is not the trustee of the trust, the lawyer should do what his client wants.
 

RG2

Junior Member
Your attempts at whitewashing this are actually making it sound worse, not better.


ETA: I have to ask...but what happened in your new description to all this cra...stuff?
What I am saying is that everything that is left out is intentionally so, because it is easier for them. It's not hoarding unnecessary garbage. I already stated about the Christmas and holiday decorations, that certainly is not garbage either. my understanding is they already put all of that away. This is supposed to be a legal forum, not imposing moral judgment forum. If they wanted to leave their holiday decorations up all year, in their own house, and some people do, isn't it their legal right?
I am talking about the items that were there the last I was there that the son explained to me, which again made perfect sense to me.

My point and main question is that as far as the law is concerned, as long as there are no code violations, how is it anyone's business how somebody has their house arranged? Period? This is America. I would not allow somebody to come into my house and tell me how I have to arrange things, or how messy I am "allowed" to have my house.
Secondly, what does any of this have to do with a forced guardianship over the son? The son is the main person cleaning things up more so than the father. I thought guardianship required some sort of mental disability. Can't he go to a psychiatrist and get a report that he is not mentally disabled? what are the odds that a probate judge would actually impose guardianship for such a thing as this, on someone that has no diagnosed mental disability?
For example, if I came over your house and decided I didn't like the way you had things arranged, are some other aspect of how you lived your life, could I file a petition to get guardianship over you? Doesn't this strike anyone as blatantly wrong? Anyone could abuse this for any reason against anyone.
 

RG2

Junior Member
Did you also just call sentimental Christmas heirlooms, Electronics, And so forth, "crap"?
Sorry, but in my house and most everyone else I know, those are some of the most precious items a person can own. Wow.
We are talking about legalities here, not strange personal opinions about what "should" matter to someone.
 

ecmst12

Senior Member
And if you don't have the time or space to store those things where they don't constitute a safety hazard, then you need to get rid of them. It's just stuff.
 

Shadowbunny

Queen of the Not-Rights
I know you think you're helping your friend, but 1) he may not appreciate you putting his business out on the web and 2) you're not privy to the whole story, no matter how much you think you are.

The absolute best thing you can do for your friend is provide emotional support, and encourage him to work with his attorney.
 

RG2

Junior Member
That's NOT what you described in your first post.



Great questions for the adult to ask his attorney.
Agreed, problem is he (attorney) won't take his calls. It makes me wonder who this attorney is really working for. The whole thing is extremely fishy to me. I was under the impression this whole guardianship thing was something the attorney steered the father into agreeing to, without the father really understanding what it was or what it meant. Now that the father gets it, and wants it stopped, the attorney suddenly will not take his calls, return them, or talk to him at all. Aside from at the courthouse when he gave his ultimatum for what he demanded done to their house. Basically the attorney seems to be the boss of everything now, including the father who hired him in the first place. That seems completely opposite of how it's supposed to work.
It's almost as if the father needs another attorney to defend his rights against the attacks of his other attorney. Again, there's no way that can be right.
 

RG2

Junior Member
And if you don't have the time or space to store those things where they don't constitute a safety hazard, then you need to get rid of them. It's just stuff.
I can see how family heirlooms are going to mean something to someone, so I would never tell someone to get rid of anything that was important to them or their family. I would definitely say to make sure they were stored in a way where it was not a hazard, of course. However I would not call anything a hazard in the way they had everything they were currently using out and about, like laid out on a table, it was just messy in appearance. They put the table up for that sole purpose as it was easier for them. I honestly don't understand how that's anyone's business but their's as long as it doesn't pose any hazard or code violation, which it did not. Like I said, this is supposed to be a free country.
 
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LdiJ

Senior Member
Agreed, problem is he (attorney) won't take his calls. It makes me wonder who this attorney is really working for. The whole thing is extremely fishy to me. I was under the impression this whole guardianship thing was something the attorney steered the father into agreeing to, without the father really understanding what it was or what it meant. Now that the father gets it, and wants it stopped, the attorney suddenly will not take his calls, return them, or talk to him at all. Aside from at the courthouse when he gave his ultimatum for what he demanded done to their house. Basically the attorney seems to be the boss of everything now, including the father who hired him in the first place. That seems completely opposite of how it's supposed to work.
It's almost as if the father needs another attorney to defend his rights against the attacks of his other attorney. Again, there's no way that can be right.
Again, if the attorney is not the trustee of the trust, then I suggest that dad hire another attorney, who can inform the first attorney that he is fired, and demand the return of the trust checkbook and anything else that the attorney is holding. However, I have a feeling that somehow the attorney has been made trustee of the trust, and if I am right, that is a serious problem.
 
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