2 issues: notice to vacate requirement and electrical system codes violations

[megamawax]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Indiana

There are two parts to my question.

First part:
Last August, my wife and I signed a lease to rent a house in Indiana from Aug. 12th 2009 through July 12th 2010. We recently purchased a house and no longer need to rent. We informed our landlord today (he never contacted us regarding re-upping our lease or vacating), June 23rd and informed him that we would pay our July rent, but that we planned to be moved out by the end of this month and would like to give him back the property so that we'd no longer have to mow, pay utilities, etc. When we sent the notice, we though our lease went through the end of July, but when we looked at the lease after his response, we noticed that it was just through the 12th.

Anyway, he informed us that we are required to give him 90 days written notice whether the lease is up or we're breaking early. He wants us to pay through the end of August. It doesn't make much sense to me that we'd be obligated beyond our contract period. The lease itself says this: "This lease may only be terminated by 90 days written notice from either party." Written in by the landlord is this: "90 day written notice IF lease is broke early must pay 2 months rent after move out."

I've been unable to find anything definitive that clears things up for me. So am I obligated to pay more if my notice is not 90 days, and what can he do if we refuse to pay?

Second part:
My second question deals with the electrical system in the house we're renting. It's filled with 3-prong ungrounded outlets, and there are no GFCIs in the bathrooms or kitchen. I believe this is against code. What are my options regarding this issue? The Indiana tenant/landlord law his this section:
IC 32-31-8-5
Landlord obligations
Sec. 5. A landlord shall do the following:
(1) Deliver the rental premises to a tenant in compliance with the rental agreement, and in a safe, clean, and habitable condition.
(2) Comply with all health and housing codes applicable to the rental premises.
(3) Make all reasonable efforts to keep common areas of a rental premises in a clean and proper condition.
(4) Provide and maintain the following items in a rental premises in good and safe working condition, if provided on the premises at the time the rental agreement is entered into:
(A) Electrical systems.
(B) Plumbing systems sufficient to accommodate a reasonable supply of hot and cold running water at all times.
(C) Sanitary systems.

It would seem to me that the landlord is not providing an electrical system that is in good and safe working condition. We haven't had any issues during our stay, but perhaps this issue could be used as a way to compel him to waive the 90 days written notice if we are obligated to that.

Thank you.

 

[Gail in Georgia]

Many leases require a certain amount of time that a tenant must notify a landlord they are no longer renewing the lease, even when it is coming to an end. That's what the 90 day requirement in your lease means.

The state requirements you describe regarding electrical systems do not specify that outlets in your bathroom or kitchen must be GFCI's. Unless there is a local ordinance requiring such, this is a non issue here.

Gail

 

[megamawax]

RE: Gail

OK, so it looks like I'm getting conflicting advice from different sources. I went to justanswer.com and asked one of their lawyers my question as well, and this was her response, followed by my reply, followed by her 2nd response:

Hello. If you plan to be out of the property when the lease ends, then you do not have to pay him anything more to end the "lease". A lease simply ends -- you do not have to provide notice of it or pay rent for that to happen -- unless you want to renew the lease and want to negotiate terms for that. If you must stay through the end of the month of July, then you become a tenant at will after the end of the lease, and there is nothing in the law that states that you must pay additional rent when you are leaving a tenant at will situation. My suggestion is that you pay him through July 12 and then if you can, get out at the end of the lease. At that point, he may try to take you to court -- but make sure you show your lease to the judge and that it ended July 12 -- you should be okay. You should take pictures of the place before you leave with a date and time stamp on the photos to prove the date in case he tries to claim damages that never existed also.


Hello and thank you for the reply. We definitely can be out of the rental prior to July 12th (we planned to do our clean-up this weekend and then hand over the keys on Monday). Your answer makes complete logical sense as it seems to me the default position is that we will vacate upon the expiration of the lease unless we either do not leave (in which case we become month-to-month tenants) or we inform the landlord of a desire to re-up. However, the lease specifically states this: "This lease may only be terminated by 90 days written notice from either party." Following this, the landlord wrote: "90 day written notice IF lease is broke early must pay 2 mos rent after move out." The first clause seems vague to me as I don't interpret our action as terminating the lease. But I don't know how a court would interpret the clause or if Indiana has some sort of a minimum notice of intent to vacate even if we aren't breaking the lease early. I've been trying to find some kind of documentation one way or the other, but the information on Indiana's General Assembly website (Indiana Landlord Tenant Law) seems vague or doesn't directly answer the issue, and I'm not sure there's a live person (aside from a lawyer) to whom I could direct my question. But if the law says that whatever is in the contract is binding, am I stuck, or could I argue that the clause in the lease is open to interpretation? I think that's good advice regarding the photos. I actually expect our landlord to try and keep our entire deposit. In October, we received an anonymous letter from a previous tenant claiming that our landlord ripped her off by keeping her entire deposit. She even provided a list of things that he charged for, which added up exactly to the deposit. Interestingly, I think everything on that list was stuff we requested to be fixed. Unfortunately, we didn't keep any kind of log or take pictures beforehand (all requested repairs were done in September). Anyway, do you think there's anything definitive I could show my landlord (some law, perhaps) that proves my obligation ends on July 12th so long as I'm no longer living there? If possible, I'd like to nip this issue in the bud before he tries to take us to court. Thank you.


"This lease may only be terminated by 90 days written notice from either party." Following this, the landlord wrote: "90 day written notice IF lease is broke early must pay 2 mos rent after move out."

I added in the BOLD to the operative words. Your lease is not terminating and you are not breaking it early. You have a basic contract that will be controlled by basic contract law which contract will expire by its terms on July 12 -- at that point if you have moved out there are no further obligations of either party. There is no requirement to give a notice to tell the landlord that "our lease is expiring -- therefore, we want to hold you to the lease terms and move out on July 12 when the lease permits us to leave". Lets put this another way -- if you bought the house 2 months ago and tried to give notice 2 months ago that you were going to move out May 12 -- THEN the LL could hold you to the lease language and tell you that you owe him rent monies according to this 90 day language because you are ending the lease early.

There is no statute that covers this situation -- that is why you could not find anything. I is contract law which develops through legal cases that are heard by the courts individually based upon the facts of each case. If your Landlord takes this to court, unless the judge is on the take or this LL is politically connected, he will not win on this issue. You stand there in court with the lease and you say "your honor, we did not terminate the lease and we did not break it early -- the lease expired by the written terms of the lease on the expiration date of July 12 and we moved out on that date". If I were you, I would be more concerned about him trying to claim that you left damages behind you.


As your answer and her answer are completely opposite, I don't know who's correct here. Does the situation fall under basic contract law in that once July 12th comes around, if we're out of the place, we're no longer obligated to pay him anything, or can he force us to pay through the end of August just because we didn't give him 90 days notice that we weren't going to renew our lease?

Do you know of any documentation or specific law that spells this issue out? I'd like to be able to have something concrete from the legal system that I can go by.


As for the electrical issue, it's not just the GFCIs not being there in the kitchen and bathrooms. The whole house is filled with 3-prong, ungrounded outlets, which goes against building codes (I'm going to contact someone local today to find out if this issue warrants having a city inspector compel my landlord to switch out all of the outlets). But I'm not sure if this statute actually requires rental properties to be up to code or not. Ungrounded 3-prong outlets, though, are a safety issue, for one, and 3-prong outlets in general imply a grounded system and therefore a sense of security. Surge protectors don't protect properly if not plugged into a grounded outlet, and the surge protector manufacturers won't do anything if your stuff gets trashed if they weren't plugged into grounded outlets.

 

[Gail in Georgia]

Again, read your lease. If you do not believe that you need to give this 90 day notice, don't (it's too late anyway) and wait and see if the landlord files a lawsuit against you.

You've lived there since August of 2009, your lease ends less than 3 weeks and NOW you're suddenly worried about ungrounded outlets and lack of GFCI's? No offense but this sounds like you're simply attempting to grasp at any straw that might justify you leaving the rental unit without the risk of a financial penalty should the landlord decide to sue you for what they claim is the lack of adequate notice.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Tenants get worried that they may either owe extra money or possibly face a lawsuit and suddenly the place they've lived in for months (or years) at a time becomes a deathtrap, filled with mold, poor electrical circuits, gas leaks, bad plumbing, leaky roofs, dangerous windows, rodents and/or drug dealers living down the street. Judges do tend to see through this for what it often is.

Gail

 

[megamawax]

RE: Gail

First off, I think this clause in the Indiana code might help:

IC 32-31-1-8
Notice to quit; when not necessary
Sec. 8. Notice is not required to terminate a lease in the following situations:
(1) The landlord agrees to rent the premises to the tenant for a specified period of time.
(2) The time for the determination of the tenancy is specified in the contract.
(3) A tenant at will commits waste.
(4) The tenant is a tenant at sufferance.
(5) The express terms of the contract require the tenant to pay the rent in advance, and the tenant refuses or neglects to pay the rent in advance.
(6) The landlord-tenant relationship does not exist.
As added by P.L.2-2002, SEC.16.


Second, the clause in the lease seems vague to me, which is why I'm asking for help. It states, "This lease may only be terminated by 90 days written notice from either party." Does allowing the lease to expire constitute termination? I don't know. I'm not breaking my lease early.


Third, regarding the electrical outlets, you're implying something about me without knowing all of the facts. I certainly find that annoying, but I won't take offense. Many people jump to conclusions and act on unfounded assumptions.

As far as the electrical goes, we were unaware that the outlets were ungrounded until we purchased a house a few weeks ago and an electrician brought up the same ungrounded issue in that house (same with the GFCIs). After that, we began looking more into that issue and checked out the house we were renting. So we weren't living there all this time with a problem we were fine with and are all of a sudden grasping at straws to get out of paying the landlord money. I don't think we should have to pay money beyond the lease period. And I think the electrical system is a safety concern for people and equipment as most people are going to assume that if they plug in their surge protectors that those surge protectors will work, and if they fail, they will be able to get money from the manufacturer. But the manufacturers won't pay if the surge protectors were plugged into ungrounded outlets. Additionally, from reading about GFCIs, it seems negligent to place an outlet directly next to a sink in the bathroom that is not a GFCI or even a grounded 3-prong outlet.

While this may not be enough to show that the landlord broke the lease by not meeting habitability standards, it may be enough to have a city inspector come in and force him to fix those issues for the next tenant.

 

[HuAi]

My experience is not in Indiana, but I have been a landlord for 8 years in two other states, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

Check your lease for a section dealing with renewals. Most leases after they expire either renew automatically for another year or absent a renewal clause become month-to-month per state law. If your lease has a renewal clause, then it should also state the period of time when the tenant has to give notice so the lease doesn't automatically renew. This is different from early termination of a lease. That's usually covered in another section.

If your lease has now renewed, you're on the hook until the LL can rerent it - I'd start looking for a sublessor to take my place. If your lease has rolled over to month-to-month, give written notice as soon as you can. You can be held liable for 1 month only.

As far as grounded outlets go - construction has to adhere to code only on the day it's inspected. If tomorrow, electrical code changes to require everyone to use 12 gauge wire it doesn't mean that all existing construction has to be torn out and replaced. The ungrounded outlets in the kitchen go against today's national electrical code used by 99% of municipalities, but it only matters that the kitchen was built with a permit and adhered to code on the day of the electrical inspection.

 

[megamawax]

RE: HuAi

Here's the clause in the lease that pertains to your answer: "If the tenant remains as tenant after the expiration of this lease without signing a new lease, a month-to-month tenancy will be created with the same terms and conditions as this lease, except that such new tenancy may be terminated by thirty (30) days written notice from either the tenant or the landlord."

My lease has not yet expired (runs through July 12), and we are already moved out. We were planning on doing some cleaning this weekend and hoped to turn the place over to the landlord by the end of June. We would, of course, pay for the July rent. We just don't want to have to continue paying utilities for two places.

We already informed the landlord of this, but he wants us to pay through the end of August (6 weeks after the lease has expired) because we didn't give him 90 days notice.

I'm just not clear on what constitutes termination of the lease. The lease is expiring, so why would I have to give notice that I'm moving out? Shouldn't it be the default position that I'm renting the place for the duration specified in the lease and not one second more unless I ask the landlord for a renewal or if I continue to live there, thus converting to a month-to-month? The landlord never asked us if we wanted to renew, so shouldn't he already be expecting to have to find a new tenant?

 

[FarmerJ]

How many times did you complain in writting via certified mail about the code issues ? if you had not complained in the past with a paper trail to prove it the courts will not take any complaint about them seriously , If It was me I would pay all of julys rent and just prepare by setting aside the money if the LL chooses to sue then they will and with july rent paid in full you will be able to watch the house to see if another person has moved in , note the date and let the LL sue you , hopefully the LL will find a new customer right away to move in and better yet it if move in happens during the month you paid for then your free to argue that LL has a new customer in the house , you checked the property frequently and its not fair for you to pay any more rent to the LL because of the new tenant occupying the home. BTW if new person moves in you can ask the utility companys , elect and gas , to give to you NON identifying letters that would say if someone other than the owner started new accounts and what the dates were that they did that , for the address to help show the court that a new person is occupying the house.( the worst the utility companys can do is hem haw and say NO, but again as long as you make it clear that its non identifying information they may well do it)

 

[megamawax]

RE: FarmerJ

We have not yet complained about the code issues. We only recently discovered the problem, and we're basically already moved out, so we figured we'd just let him know when we turned over the house as it no longer affects us, and he'd have over 2 weeks of rent-paid time to make repairs. However, I'm now getting the impression that he would just ignore that and not bother fixing, which is part of the reason why I'm seeking advice on that issue. The other part, of course, was to see if the issue meant that the landlord had already broken the lease, which would mean that we wouldn't have to worry about the notice issue.

It appears the potential code violations do not mean he broke the lease, but I still want to make sure he has to fix his place if the law requires it. However, I'm not sure what my options are since I soon won't be a tenant requesting a repair.

I like the idea about watching the house and contacting the utility companies. I have no doubt he could easily rent this place out again by the end of July as it's a pretty attractive rental for the area and for the price.

As for the lease issue, I'm still stuck on what constitutes termination. The lease says that 90 days notice must be given to terminate a lease by either party, but you can only terminate a lease that exists, so wouldn't that necessarily refer only to breaking a lease early? On July 13th, after the lease expires, there's no longer a lease to terminate, so wouldn't that mean that no notice is required to leave at that point?

And this Indiana Code section seems to back up my view:

IC 32-31-1-8
Notice to quit; when not necessary
Sec. 8. Notice is not required to terminate a lease in the following situations:
(1) The landlord agrees to rent the premises to the tenant for a specified period of time.
(2) The time for the determination of the tenancy is specified in the contract.
(3) A tenant at will commits waste.
(4) The tenant is a tenant at sufferance.
(5) The express terms of the contract require the tenant to pay the rent in advance, and the tenant refuses or neglects to pay the rent in advance.
(6) The landlord-tenant relationship does not exist.
As added by P.L.2-2002, SEC.16.


Since the landlord agreed to rent the house to us for a specified period of time (August 12th 2009 - July 12th 2010), and that period is listed on the lease, wouldn't that mean both of the first two provisions have been met and therefore no notice is required?

 

[FarmerJ]

Unless your lease flat out said it expires on such and such date and you will be required to vacate. I can see the LL arguing that they were entitled to a 90 day notice which the lease clearly says and you have not provided to the LL. and even if the lease was not formally renewed and became a month to month afterward it still calls for a 90 day notice to end it meaning you would have to give notice for it to end 90 days later. NOW as to your complaints about the property you admit you did not send your complaint to the LL in writting , its the same as a fart in Wally the smell is there for a moment and its memory is soon gone. Your moving anyway so for all you know your LL will wait until its empty to fix it and even if the LL choses to not fix it you will have moved away so you would not have a legit complaint. NOW if you had put it into writting , sent to LL via certified mail , stored your copy of the complaint at your bank box and the house burned down while you were still living in it and the LL had ignored your complaints and fire dept determined it to be faultly wiring your record of written complaint would make it alot easier to sue the LL and MAYBE win a claim of negligence regarding the value of your personal property , but thats all just a theory , I can see it now in court , with out proof of complaint , you bring up the complaints about the wiring If the LL sues you and the court ask you for proof , you tell the judge you have none , LL decides to claim there was no complaint, Burden to prove is on you. Plan on paying all of july rent like it or not and check on the house often and if it appears someone has moved in let the LL sue you and bring with you even if its a old neighbor who you were on speaking terms with and let them tell the court someone NEW is living in the house. LL wont be allowed to double dip and collect rents from new tenant and you.

 

[megamawax]

RE: FarmerJ

My lease is a fixed term lease, with the dates clearly marked on it, so it does flat out state that it goes from Aug. 12th 2009 - July 12th 2010.

I am disputing that the lease clearly says that the LL is entitled to 90 days notice. The lease says that a 90 day notice is required for either party to terminate the lease, but I'm not terminating the lease. The lease is expiring. In addition, the LL wrote next to that clause that 90 days is for breaking the lease and that two months additional rent would be owed if we wanted to break the lease. But as I said, we are not breaking the lease.

And I think the section I included from the Indiana Code regarding when it's OK to not provide a notice to quit backs me up.

Also, the lease stipulates that if it goes to a month-to-month lease, which won't happen because we've essentially already moved out, only 30 days notice is required, not 90.

As far as the electrical goes, I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. By the time we discovered the potential code violations, we had purchased a house and were already moving in. We couldn't notify him in writing of a problem we didn't know was there. And when we did know it was there, our stuff was no longer in the house, so I couldn't care less if the place burns down.

When the LL told us that he wanted payment beyond the lease period, that is when I started to look into whether or not the electrical issue could be used to show that he broke the lease and therefore none of this other stuff would matter. However, I've already accepted that it can't. My only reason to continue to pursue the electrical thing is so that it's safe for the next tenants. But I'm not sure there's really anything I could do as it's so close to the end of my lease. Sure, I could notify the LL, and he could dilly-dally for a while, but by the time he might be compelled to do something, I won't have possession of the house.

I will be paying up through July 12th, and if the LL wants to sue, so be it, but I think I'd win. All I have to say is that it's a fixed-term lease, which is itself a notice to quit upon the expiration of the lease, and show that the lease does not clearly state that a 90 day notice is necessary if I'm not breaking the lease early. From what I've read, the judges tend to be harder on the LLs as they are more experienced with these issues.

 

[FarmerJ]

If the LL sues you best wishes to you.