Advice needed badly, gentlemen...

[Volcom]

What is the name of your state? Florida

First I'd like to say hello to the forum, hello and sorry for the long upcoming post. I am new here and found this website through a google search. It's close of business Friday and a short time ago (today) I learned of something that is listed on my record (or criminal record I guess you could say).
I cannot contact any local attorneys until next monday, so I would like an opinion, any opinion, on a matter that has presented itself to me.

A bit about me; I'm a recent college grad and I am now applying for jobs. My major was legal studies, however, it is my hope to get involved in law enforcement, Federal LE preferrably.

I'm in the hiring process w/ many agencies both Federal and local. I have a clean record, along w/ solid LE internships and I seem to be quite competitive.... until today.

This week I was dropped from a local dept's. hiring process after starting the background investigation phase. This came as a shock to me, as I know my background is clean. Upon finally reaching a POC today w/ the aformentioned department, I have learned that it was because of something in my (new to me) criminal record. It's a character issue; stealing.

In August of 2002 myself and few friends were retruring from a local college bar to a friend's apartment. Make a long story short; we go into the apartment, some of us go to bed, a couple stay up and continue drinking. I, now in my boxers, leave the apartment to go out to my car to retrieve something (cell phone, wallet, etc.). Parked near my car is a pizza delivery car, running w/ both doors open. I go to my car, get what I need, and begin to walk back towards the apt. bldg. As I walk by the pizza DV again, there's the pizza guy asking me where his pizzas went? I say: "I have no idea, I was just going to my car". His response: "Bull****, I just saw you next to my car", I again give the same response. The pizza guy tells me he is going to call the cops and I say "go ahead". I go back into the apartment and well, shortly, there's a knock at the door. Sheriff's deputies were called and now are a knocking. My friend who rents the apt. decides to ignore them as he wants to sleep and I do not want to deal w/ being accused by this guy (cops around there are just not friendly). So, they are ignored....until. 30 minutes later the power goes out, my friend and I step outside to check the circuit breaker (hot without A/C) and who do we find next to it? You guessed it, a couple of deputies. I'm immediately handcuffed and the pizza guy identifies me as the one he saw. I explain to the deputies what I was doing at that time and there not buying it. I repeatedly tell the pizza guy, "I didn't steal your pizza", "my hands aren't greasy" or "come closer, smell my breath. Smell any pepperoni?". No dice. Pizza guy says he wants to get payed or he is pressing charges. I don't have any money, so my friends cough up some cash (caused I'm scared ****less of being arressted) and I am released from custody. I had not thought about that incident until today when I was told I was explicitly denied employment because of it. When the PD ran my name, SSN#, etc., this incident report was in my record and listed me as the suspect. The PD's concern was a character one. I attempted to explain "that I no idea about this in my record" to no avail.

So, any ideas on recourse. To me it seems like lack of due process or slander. I never stole a damn thing, yet this report in my record says I did. Apparently I was never given a chance to defend myself (cept for the deputies that didn't buy my story). There was no written sworn statement by the "pizza guy", no charges pressed, nothing. However, there it is for the world to see. I have a copy of the report and spoke to a Captain w/ the arresting agency (professional standards bureau) and was told, short of a lawsuit, there's nothing he could do.

So, my plan is that. To file a lawsuit against the arresting agency and broadway pizza. Expungement is not an option as this is based on principle. I want this incident report completely removed from my record.I didn't steal a damn thing, I was threatened w/ arrest, so my friends bailed me out of a bad situation. I am quite frustrated and upset.

Again, sorry for the long post. Thank you guys/gals in advance.

 

[fairisfair]

google florida expungement. I would do it for you , but hey, it's friday

 

[CdwJava]

I go back into the apartment and well, shortly, there's a knock at the door. Sheriff's deputies were called and now are a knocking. My friend who rents the apt. decides to ignore them as he wants to sleep and I do not want to deal w/ being accused by this guy (cops around there are just not friendly). So, they are ignored

BAD idea ... and also bad for anyone looking to get into law enforcement. One of the key job dimensions is how well the applicant (you) confronts adverse situations. Hiding from them reflects negative in this area.

I had not thought about that incident until today when I was told I was explicitly denied employment because of it. When the PD ran my name, SSN#, etc., this incident report was in my record and listed me as the suspect. The PD's concern was a character one. I attempted to explain "that I no idea about this in my record" to no avail.

This was not part of a criminal record, it is a report of an incident involving you. This process is done by most every department condutcting a background as they tell a picture of the applicant.

However, it is not an automatic disqualifier to employment, but an agency is certainly free to decide NOT to hire based upon the contact. In fact, they can choose NOT to hire for almost anything they want to.

So, any ideas on recourse.

Keep applying at other agencies.

To me it seems like lack of due process or slander.

It's not. It's a report of an incident the department responded to. You are certainly free to explain your version of events to any further background investigator.

So, my plan is that. To file a lawsuit against the arresting agency and broadway pizza.

On what grounds? There certainly was enough cause to think you MIGHT have stolen the pizzas. But, considering it never went to court, there is really no ability to prove your innocence.

Another issue is that the statute of limitations has almost certainly passed on this issue.

Also consider that if you sue the agency for doing it's job, you will lose. Additionally, that lawsuit will pop up in a background and I guarantee you that you will never get hired in law enforcement if that happens. ANY court action will likely be uncovered in a background.

If you have the money to pay an attorney to dabble with all this, go right ahead. Just don't expect to be employed as a peace officer if you go forward.

I want this incident report completely removed from my record.I didn't steal a damn thing, I was threatened w/ arrest, so my friends bailed me out of a bad situation. I am quite frustrated and upset.

Well, you can consult an attorney, but these reports are generally not something that you can get removed. However, not being familiar with FL law, it might be possible.

Keep in mind that even if they don't have it in their system anymore, SOMEONE will know about it ... and someone will also know about your court case to force its removal. All this information will almost certainly get back to the backgrounding agency.

I do law enforcement backgrounds. I can tell you that an incident on record of the type you mention is NOT a career-killer. However, it IS sufficient to give an agency pause, and some agencies may opt not to take a chance. Others might choose to give you a shot provided your record is otherwise clean and you have a steady work history, an education, and clean references and referrals.

So, what are you going to do if you assume that one of your references says something bad about them? Sue them, too?

If you have a couple thousand dollars, consult with an attorney, but do not expect that this will result in the record being pulled ... and even if pulled, it does not remove the incident from the memories of those involved.

- Carl

 

[Volcom]

BAD idea ... and also bad for anyone looking to get into law enforcement. One of the key job dimensions is how well the applicant (you) confronts adverse situations. Hiding from them reflects negative in this area.

I see your point, but to a point. Why get involved in a situation, at the time, that had nothing do with me? Second, why get involved in a situation that had nothing to do w/ me and attempt to explain my side after I had been drinking at a local bar (not in a clear state of mind)? It certainly wasn't hiding, more like not getting myself involved in business I had nothing to do with late at night.

This was not part of a criminal record, it is a report of an incident involving you. This process is done by most every department condutcting a background as they tell a picture of the applicant..

Involving me. ONLY on paper. I wasn't involved in anything, no theft, and with this report left as it is, it is untrue and a false picture.

[/QUOTE]However, it is not an automatic disqualifier to employment, but an agency is certainly free to decide NOT to hire based upon the contact. In fact, they can choose NOT to hire for almost anything they want to. [/QUOTE]

Hope your right. Time will tell.


[/QUOTE]Keep applying at other agencies.[/QUOTE]

Have too.


[/QUOTE]On what grounds? There certainly was enough cause to think you MIGHT have stolen the pizzas. But, considering it never went to court, there is really no ability to prove your innocence.[/QUOTE]

Falsely accused and loss of a potential job for a charge/theft I was not responsible, nor ever proofed responsible. Not enough huh? What about 4 affidavits that can truthfully state the facts ? And, what cause? Walking out to my car assumes guilt. Thats good logic. Using that line of thinking one can assume I was a voracious vagrant given my attire (boxers) and on the hunt for pizza nonetheless.
C'mon. Your also saying since that because I wasn't charged (never given chance/right to court) that I'm guilty. That doesn't make sense for obvious reasons.

[/QUOTE]Another issue is that the statute of limitations has almost certainly passed on this issue.[/QUOTE]

Probably so. I'll look into it.

[/QUOTE]Also consider that if you sue the agency for doing it's job, you will lose. Additionally, that lawsuit will pop up in a background and I guarantee you that you will never get hired in law enforcement if that happens. ANY court action will likely be uncovered in a background.[/QUOTE]

Doing there job should have consisted of some kind of field investigation don't ya think? Listening to me, my friends, etc. Could have prevented the outcome I experienced today had the deputies not sought such a quick resolution. You need to understand a FALSE incident report is not resolution and only tarnishes my record for no cause. NONE. Character accusations are serious business. You should know that.

[/QUOTE]If you have the money to pay an attorney to dabble with all this, go right ahead. Just don't expect to be employed as a peace officer if you go forward.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be on the inside of this. However, I know for a fact that a blanket statement like that does not hold. Any agency that looks down upon a citizen making wrong=right w/ regard to character is an agency I do not want to be a part of.


[/QUOTE]Keep in mind that even if they don't have it in their system anymore, SOMEONE will know about it ... and someone will also know about your court case to force its removal. All this information will almost certainly get back to the backgrounding agency.[/QUOTE]

Thats worse than to be labeled a theif?

[/QUOTE] However, it IS sufficient to give an agency pause, and some agencies may opt not to take a chance. [/QUOTE]

Hence its seriousness and the need for it to be challenged.


[/QUOTE]So, what are you going to do if you assume that one of your references says something bad about them? Sue them, too?[/QUOTE]

That's just silly bud. Way out of context.

I appreciate your response, I do. Can't help to think you don't buy what I have already wrote, but thats fine. Its an internet forum for crying out loud. However If I was at fault, my prior post wouldn't exist. You gave me some to things think about and I appreciate it.

fairisfair; Wouldn't an expungement be just as bad as an admission of guilt. I mean, why expunge it if I didn't do it. Is there an upside?

 

[CdwJava]

It certainly wasn't hiding, more like not getting myself involved in business I had nothing to do with late at night.

The cops were investigating an allegation of a crime. Failing to come to the door looks like an act of guilt. This, too, plays against you.

Involving me. ONLY on paper. I wasn't involved in anything, no theft, and with this report left as it is, it is untrue and a false picture.

But, it is still recorded as it was recorded.

Falsely accused and loss of a potential job for a charge/theft I was not responsible, nor ever proofed responsible. Not enough huh?

Nope. Not enough.

And, what cause? Walking out to my car assumes guilt. Thats good logic. Using that line of thinking one can assume I was a voracious vagrant given my attire (boxers) and on the hunt for pizza nonetheless.

Go back and look up the terms "reasonable suspecion" and/or "probable cause". Ultimately, since you never took it to court, you were unable to challeneg the allegations. And your friends payoff for the pizzas CAN be seen as a tacet admission of guilt to the pizza driver and to an investigator reading the incident report.

C'mon. Your also saying since that because I wasn't charged (never given chance/right to court) that I'm guilty. That doesn't make sense for obvious reasons.

Nope. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the background investigator can infer what he will from the incident.

Doing there job should have consisted of some kind of field investigation don't ya think?

No crime to prosecute equals no need to do a more complete investigation.

Just how much DO you know about police work?

You seem to be on the inside of this. However, I know for a fact that a blanket statement like that does not hold. Any agency that looks down upon a citizen making wrong=right is an agency I do not want to be a part of.

Then keep applying until you find an agency that will hold a more "open mind" to the incident at hand.

Hence its seriousness and the need for it to be challenged.

You can try, but in my state it wouldn't likely happen unless it could be proven that the statements were knowingly false.

FL law may be different.

So, what are you going to do if you assume that one of your references says something bad about them? Sue them, too?[/QUOTE]

That's just silly bud. Way out of context.[/QUOTE]
Not really. You're looking to sue a police agency and a pizza company for what you believe is an unfair characterization of the event ... Heaven help the co-worker that infers you were lazy or might be under the impression you did something improper!

I appreciate your response, I do. Can't help to think you don't buy what I have already wrote, but its an internet forum for crying out loud. However If I was at fault, my prior post wouldn't exist. You gave me some to things think about and I appreciate it.

I can't say whether I believe it or not. But looking at it from a manager who makes hiring decisions for my agency, and as someone who has done a hundred background investigations, I can tell you that if I were to come across this four year old incident report, I would want to know more about it ... and I might be satisfied with your interpretation of events - provided you come across reasonable, polite, and level-headed. If you came across angry, defensive, or lacked some measure of control or objectivity, I would smile, thank you for your time, and you would die on the list.

Psychological and emotional factors also play into the hiring process.

And some agencies have a higher tolerance for risk than others. I might be willing to take a risk on you hoping that the polygraph and the psychological examination will tell me whether the image presented in the report are more or less likely to be the true you.

Any action you take should be reasoned and mature - not kneejerk. In every case I know of where a potential employee has threatened or begun litigation against a law enforcement agency, he or she has never been subsequently hired.

And there is nothing to "expunge" - you have not been convicted and there is no history of arrest.

I can only recommend you be open and up front at the beginning with any background investigator. Explain the situation and let the chips fall where they may. Yeah, it may suck, and it may result in a few closed doors, but the alternative is to slam the door on your foot.

Remember - civil action will be a public record ... and THAT action will certainly lead a background investigator to ask about it - and even if you do succeed in getting it removed, if you don't tell them about the incident, they will hunt it down themselves. Better to be up front than appear to be trying to hide something.

- Carl

 

[Volcom]

Go back and look up the terms "reasonable suspecion" and/or "probable cause". Ultimately, since you never took it to court, you were unable to challeneg the allegations. And your friends payoff for the pizzas CAN be seen as a tacet admission of guilt to the pizza driver and to an investigator reading the incident report.

No need to, I just feel the cause is very thin. Taking it to court was not an evident option then, being that I was not arrested. How am I to know such an incident report is going to paint me as guilty when the allegation is told to me to be extinguished if the pizza guy can be paid and on his way? The payoff. Threat of arrest produced payment, nothing else and can be proven.


[/QUOTE]No crime to prosecute equals no need to do a more complete investigation.[/QUOTE]

Beforehand is my reference. A little touch and go with a few questions to the accuser could have taken the officers alot further than simply relying solely on "I saw some guy by my car". Maybe it could have led them down the right path instead of the wrong one.

[/QUOTE]Just how much DO you know about police work?[/QUOTE]

Only claim to know a little about alot. I'm not a police officer.


[/QUOTE]unless it could be proven that the statements were knowingly false.[/QUOTE]

Thats the easy part. I was never seen taking anything, only assumed. The officers missed that. Does that not address the unfair characterization point you make below?

[/QUOTE]Not really. You're looking to sue a police agency and a pizza company for what you believe is an unfair characterization of the event ... Heaven help the co-worker that infers you were lazy or might be under the impression you did something improper![/QUOTE]

Has to be out of context. Were not trading discussion on work history and who thinks what about mine. What you write above assumes I'm irrational. I'm only upset to blindsided by this, nothing more/less. Were talking about a poorly inquired/reported incident report that warrants a little analytical thought. The effects of it are more difficult to explain than a disgruntled co-workers opinion. It's a free country, I'll allow them to speak .


[/QUOTE]I can't say whether I believe it or not. But looking at it from a manager who makes hiring decisions for my agency, and as someone who has done a hundred background investigations, I can tell you that if I were to come across this four year old incident report, I would want to know more about it ... and I might be satisfied with your interpretation of events - provided you come across reasonable, polite, and level-headed. If you came across angry, defensive, or lacked some measure of control or objectivity, I would smile, thank you for your time, and you would die on the list.

Psychological and emotional factors also play into the hiring process.

And some agencies have a higher tolerance for risk than others. I might be willing to take a risk on you hoping that the polygraph and the psychological examination will tell me whether the image presented in the report are more or less likely to be the true you.

Any action you take should be reasoned and mature - not kneejerk. In every case I know of where a potential employee has threatened or begun litigation against a law enforcement agency, he or she has never been subsequently hired.

And there is nothing to "expunge" - you have not been convicted and there is no history of arrest.

I can only recommend you be open and up front at the beginning with any background investigator. Explain the situation and let the chips fall where they may. Yeah, it may suck, and it may result in a few closed doors, but the alternative is to slam the door on your foot.

Remember - civil action will be a public record ... and THAT action will certainly lead a background investigator to ask about it - and even if you do succeed in getting it removed, if you don't tell them about the incident, they will hunt it down themselves. Better to be up front than appear to be trying to hide something.[/QUOTE]

Once again your background of insight and advice is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[garrula lingua]

Carl's right - there's nothing to expunge - no arrest; no booking; no charges; no conviction.

What you're suffering from is an 'attitude' encounter with the cops. They were ticked that no one answ'd the door, or the pizza guy was a younger brother...

How can you complain, it'll only make it look worse. You went as high as Captain ... you could go to the Chief... heck, you could write your County/City/State Congressman about it (I think you'd win - they're jerks) - but the backlash is still very likely.

I have to comment - you weren't fingerprinted ? How do the cops know that you are the same person who they encountered that night ? How did they ID you ? An atty can send them a letter vaguely commenting on their erroneous actions (who took the pizza ? bad investigation) and improper ID of persons involved & throw in a request for information regarding other instances in which the same cops were involved in threatening criminal filings or pay us/victims) But, if they want, they can dig their heels in.

PS: if you're telling them you are trying to work Federal law enforcement, that's not such a good idea. I never met a local cop who admired/worked well with, the Feds.
If it were for a military security clearance, they might budge - feel patriotic ?

 

[Cally O]

Privacy Act

I am not an Attorney, however if you request the file about yourself under the Privacy Act I believe you can dispute the events the investigators are insinuating. You can also point out all of the points others have made in this forum and ask them to correct your record. But I would be sure to only point out the events that would help you. Such as no arrest or finger prints. I do not believe you should incriminate yourself, such as stating you did not answer the door or anything that specific. It is only human to make mistakes, I know I have done some things when I was younger that I certainly would not do now. So go and look up the Privacy Act and I think as an agency you have a right to look at the information they have about you and who they have disclosed it to, as well as ask them to correct there record. I think from what you have written if you were not afforded an opportunity to your day in court to prove your innocence they are violating the law in the area of your constitutional rights under the 14th ammendment not to mention the disclosure laws. I may be wrong but I see some initial due process and inequity rights initially, with actual damage or harm shown. However it is up to you now that you know to go through the trouble to actually write them for any personally identifiabe information (Even though you have the report,there may be something more)they have about you as well as the disclosures they have made thus far. Then you correct what you can. You may find out the Federal Agency had another source or reason, and this will help you to get it taken care of now.

Best Regards
Cally

 

[CdwJava]

I am not an Attorney, however if you request the file about yourself under the Privacy Act I believe you can dispute the events the investigators are insinuating.

He already has the report - or so his post would seem to indicate. If he doesn't, he MIGHT be able to obtain it through whatever public records law and procedure FL has in place. But there likely is no real mechanism to "dispute" the matters in the report or incident log.

You can also point out all of the points others have made in this forum and ask them to correct your record.

Correct what? This is not a criminal record. It is a report or incident log entry regarding an event that did not result in criminal prosecution 4 years ago. Again, the law in FL might be different than out here, but if someone came to my department and sought to change a report in the system, it woudl not happen absent a court order ... and I have yet to hear of such a court order to change a report so as to put the possible "suspect" into a more favorable light.

Once again, his goal is to get IN to law enforcement ... by taking this action he would virtually guarantee that this would NOT happen.

I think from what you have written if you were not afforded an opportunity to your day in court to prove your innocence they are violating the law in the area of your constitutional rights under the 14th ammendment not to mention the disclosure laws.

No, they aren't. No due process was necessary as he was not prosecuted.

The vast majority of police reports and contacts do not go to court. Most such reports document an encouter or incident that was reported to them for one reason or another. In this event who is to say whether the original poster's account is more valid than the officer's or the pizza driver's? A judge isn't going to just say, "You're right! Remove the report from your record system, immediately!" There are other sides to the story, and that is what the report or log entry is intended to do - document the incident as best they can with the information at hand.

The OP is free to explain HIS side of the story to a background investigator. If he is an otherwise stroing candidate with a good background and clean history, most agencies may choose to believe his account and give him a break. But if FL does not use polygraphs and psychological exams in their background process, they may not feel so comfortable in giving him the benefit of the doubt. Or, if the agency has been burned in the past, they might not be comfortable with this.

I have personally recommended candidates who have come in with similar reports. One actually included the report AND his "rebuttal" in his Personal History Statement (background paperwork).

If he feels strongly enough about the issue, he should really consult a local attorney who can set him on a straight path on the issue. However, he has to keep in mind that this is a two-edged sword that could come back to bite him in the behind even harder than this report might ever do. Agencies don't tend to like potential employees who resort to the courts ... and that's how it will look to a potential employer, regardless of the motivation or righteousness of his cause.

- Carl

 

[rlrl]

In NY state...

I know that an arrest without a criminal conviction(ie acquittal, dismissal, violation) cannot be reported in a Consumer Report for employment. However a report about a detention in a retail facility for shoplifting "provided that there has been an uncoerced admission of wrongdoing" can be reported in a Consumer Report. Not sure how it works in your state.

Did the employer use a consumer reporting agency? if so ask to see the report and it's contents. it sounds to me that the employer may have used a consumer reporting agency

Check out if your state has it's own version of the FCRA (Fair Credit Reporting Act). You may want to consult a lawyer who works with consumer credit. Or contact the Office of your attorney general in your state

 

[CdwJava]

The potential employer was a law enforcement agency not a civilian employer checkin a credit history. They checked his contact and criminal history with another agency and found the contact or report in the system.

- Carl

 

[Volcom]

Just popped in and saw the additional responses. Thank you rlrl, cally-o, garrula L. and cdwjava for your responses. Good advice, all of it.

I'm going to consult a local attorney and see what's what and go from there. Again, thank you all for your time.

 

[scot4538]

Your problem will go away once you move to a different state, or perhaps city, as this record is "localized". Apparently you still live in the same city.

Also, this employer happens to make a thorough check ... not every employer does such as search.

Your friend bailed you out, and did the right thing. The bad part on your report is not that you were accused by the pizza man, it is because you did not respond to cops knockin'.

The employer at this point does not know you well, so they have to go by whatever they can dig. The investigative firm are trying to look good ... all at your expense.

The police report is just a record of that incident, which would have been a non-stumbling block if you just opened the door.

 

[CdwJava]

Your problem will go away once you move to a different state, or perhaps city, as this record is "localized". Apparently you still live in the same city.

He is employing as a peace officer. This means they will search for local law enforcement and court records wherever he has lived or worked. Moving will not change that fact.

Also, this employer happens to make a thorough check ... not every employer does such as search.

When the employer is a law enforcement agency, I sure as heck HOPE SO!

- Carl