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Amtrak Under ADA

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TrainWrecked

Guest
What is the name of your state? California. Interstate travel, if it matters.

Does Amtrak have to accommodate disabled passengers? I have a severe injury to my left side. When I fly I request a seat with my left side against the aisle or a window to prevent getting banged into by other passengers or their objects. It's never been a problem with air travel. All I have to do is ask.

I made train reservations on line a while ago. I called Amtrak to ask about accommodations for my seating needs, after making the reservations. This is generally how I've done it with air travel. They said, "No, we can't guarantee that you will get a seat that will accommodate your needs. There is no way to do it." They told me I should just show up at the train and see if I get a seat that works for me. If none is available they will refund my fair in full (they won't refund my gas to and from the station, or give me enough money to obtain last-minute air travel, of course). They told me that they generally discourage disabled passengers from attempting to travel coach on trains (keep us segregated from the normal folks, I guess). They were very hostile and aggressive towards me. I was very upset. It did not seem that I was asking a lot. It generally takes about 2 minutes with the airlines.

Don't they have to accommodate all disabled passengers? Or is it only passengers in wheelchairs?

Do I have any rights in this matter? Or am I SOL because Amtrak doesn't like disabled folk?

Thanks for any information you can give me.
 


cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
Not every "disability" qualifies you for ADA protection. In order to qualify you for ADA protection, the disability must severely limit a major life function. What major life function does your injury limit? (That's a question, not a statement.)

If a major life function (walking, use of hands, breathing, etc.) is not limited, then you do not qualify as disabled under the ADA and they have no legal obligation to provide you with the seat you prefer.

Edited to include:

My knowledge of the ADA comes primarily (not exclusively) from employment law, but in employment law even when the ADA is a governing factor, the employer is NOT required to provide the accomodation that the employee prefers or even the one the doctor recommends. I suspect that even if you do qualify, Amtrak is not going to be required to change their seating arrangements to give you the seat you prefer. Any accomodation must be "reasonable" and it would not be reasonable to expect them to make that significant a change just for you.
 
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T

TrainWrecked

Guest
I meet the ADA definition of a disabled person in that I have a "physical ... impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a ... history or record of such an impairment, [and am] perceived by others as having such an impairment."

I don't have any questions about whether or not I am a qualified disabled person.
 

cbg

I'm a Northern Girl
But that still does not address the question as to whether it is "reasonable" under the definition to expect Amtrak to modify their seat assignment system to suit you, or whether they are required to provide you with the accomodation you want.
 
T

TrainWrecked

Guest
Reasonable or Not

"But that still does not address the question as to whether it is "reasonable" under the definition to expect Amtrak to modify their seat assignment system to suit you, or whether they are required to provide you with the accommodation you want."

Well, what is necessary to answer that question? Amtrak agrees I am disabled, so that's not at issue. What is at issue is whether they will make ANY accommodation that I need. When I called to ask about accommodations they told me that they advise disabled passengers who need accommodations not to travel by train or to travel by first class. They then attempted to get me to upgrade to first class. They said they don't make any accommodations for disabled passengers.

However, there web sites says to call to book if you need accommodations and they will annotate your ticket to note what accommodations you need.

They said, "We can't guarantee that you will be accommodated. There is no way to make certain you get a seat. You're only guaranteed a seat, not a particular seat. We cannot guarantee an accommodation. We don't make accommodations for disabled passengers. We don't advise disabled passengers to travel by train. If you make first class reservations we can accommodate you. If you book a bedroom we can make accommodations."

So, what is reasonable, and what is not? I actually didn't ask them to modifiy their 'seat assignment system,' though. Who decides if it is reasonable for Amtrak to provide me with the accomodation I need? The law decided it is reasonable to require Amtrak to spend billions from 2002 to 2010 to modify their carriages to accomodate passengers in wheelchairs. I'm not asking for a modification of a seat, just a particular location of seat (not one specific one), within a 'seat assignment system' that already exists. They do reserve seats for groups, and they state on their website that they will accomodate disabled passengers.
 

stephenk

Senior Member
Your problem is that by travelling in coach on Amtrak, there is no assigned seating. It's first come first served. So if the train is full when you show up, Amtrak is saying they cannot guarantee you will get a window or aisle seat. What do expect Amtrak to do if no one wants to move from their seat for you?

How much more is it to go first class with a guaranteed assigned seat?
 
T

TrainWrecked

Guest
What I'm Trying to Get

"Your problem is that by traveling in coach on Amtrak, there is no assigned seating. It's first come first served. So if the train is full when you show up, Amtrak is saying they cannot guarantee you will get a window or aisle seat. What do expect Amtrak to do if no one wants to move from their seat for you? "

Amtrak does reserve seats in regular Coach carriages for groups traveling together. I have also ridden an Amtrak train where two seats had been reserved for a pair of seniors who boarded in Reno. So, although there is no assigned seating, Amtrak can and does make accommodations. There is a system in place, already, for doing so. The train won't be full when I show up, there will be at least one seat available.

Airlines such as Southwest have first come first served seating, but they allow disabled passengers to board first to accommodate special seating needs.

"How much more is it to go first class with a guaranteed assigned seat?"

Round trip coach is about $175, the first class upgrade costs a minimum of $700.

"Explain a little more. What are you trying to get?"

Labels like on airlines from left to right facing the front of the train, AB CD, with A and D window seats, and B and C aisle seats. I am trying to get either an A anywhere in the car, or a C that is at the rear (behind the stairs between the levels).
 

rmet4nzkx

Senior Member
I am disabled and have traveled by Amtrak, to get accommodations and the disabled fare you must call into and speak to live agents and if necessary ask for a supervisor. In many cases, you have to reserve a seat anyway, if you do so in advance, that may be all that is needed to be reasonable. If it is a highly used route and you are getting on in the middle, it may be a probem if the train is full, although most people like the view from the upper level so the lower level may be the best bet for finding an empty seat or to find someone willing to move, most people will move if asked. It is possible that they will upgrade you to 1st class if the train is too full and they have room, airlines will do that as well. Even if you can't get the seat you want initially remember people do get off the train along the way, certainly protect your body with a blanket or something, or spend more time in the dinning car.. Make sure the conductor is aware of your needs so they can look out for a good seat in another car. I think if you expect trouble you will find it and if you expect people to help they will if you ask. Now, people rushing to the elevator to board and close the doors when they see my cane is another story.
 
S

Star43

Guest
I worked on the train

for 15 years. Let me tell you. We get a manifest for every train. If there are special requests, we need to follow through with them. Unfortunetely, there are only disabled seats next to the bathroom in the cafe cars.Years ago, they took out seats to accomodate the disabled.The problem is there may be only 1, and I mean, 1 disabled seat on the whole train!!!! OR, if you sit in first class, they will help you with everything, I worked first class for years, I cannot tell you how many disabled people I have helped, even almost carried down the stairs of the train. That,with lifting the luggage has got me a bad back now, but that is the nature of the job.

I just want to point out something. Conductors are in charge of the whole train, it is up to them to help you in any way you need. BUT, they only travel a certain amount of miles, then another gets on and he is in charge if the train. If the communication gets lost in between, then you might be ignored. There are so many people on the train, it is sometimes hard to get every person's special needs met. That is the difference between good conductors and conductors that just don't give a crap, they just want off the train. You need to be your own advocate, it is not like traveling on a plane, been there, I was also a flight attendent, worst paying job in the world for what you have to know and do!! But that is neither here nor there. Sometimes as a FA, I would call ahead for help, we would be waiting for a long time for a customer service agent to come with the wheelchair or whatever the person may need. At Amtrak, it is a bit different, there are 1000's of people getting on and off that train at many different times, there may be only 2 or 3 conductors, so this is where the problem is...it is the service issue. They preach service, but it is all a bunch of crap. Yeah, one day I almost cried when I let a man off at New York Penn, he needed help, we called 5 times, I had to go with the train, I've lost faith in the service time and time again. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. One time a blind man needed help at Back Bay in Boston, no one followed through, and he fell down under the tracks.

So, in closing, the railroad needs alot of improvement, and I would definetely be my own advocate, telling the person in the uniform walking through your car exactly what you need. If you get nervous when it comes near to your stop, just keep up with saying what you need. Thats all I can say. Somes trains you can have a great experience, others we used to call 'trains from hell'.AND, yes you are right, they do fall under ADA. If you complain you will get a free ticket, if you are hurt in some way, you will get a settlement. They are privately insured, we had no workers compensation as we do not pay into SS either. So, they try to "not report" injuries....believe me, I have seen people bleeding, not passengers,(them too) but workers, and they do not want to report it!!!! I left the company for many different reasons, one being that in my opinion they were corrupt.

One last thing, believe it or not people can be helpful. I have seen many passengers help out. I know traveling this way for you can be stressful, I'd still like to beieve that the majority of the time a disabled person will get their needs met, I always look on the bright side of things. Good luck to you, hope I gave a a bit of information...........
 
T

TrainWrecked

Guest
"I am disabled and have traveled by Amtrak, to get accommodations and the disabled fare you must call into and speak to live agents and if necessary ask for a supervisor."

I tried this and was denied, this is what I am seeking advice about, what to do after this fails.

"In many cases, you have to reserve a seat anyway, if you do so in advance, that may be all that is needed to be reasonable."

I tried this and Amtrak refused, that's what I am seeking legal advice about.

"If it is a highly used route and you are getting on in the middle, it may be a problem if the train is full, although most people like the view from the upper level so the lower level may be the best bet for finding an empty seat or to find someone willing to move, most people will move if asked."

Yes, I have found that when I've had to ask for a seat on public transit, the general public is willing, reasonable and polite. However, I was posting here about legal advice not commenting about manners.

"It is possible that they will upgrade you to 1st class if the train is too full and they have room, airlines will do that as well."

Yes, I've been upgraded to first class on airlines. However, airlines have a system in place for handling this issue, they just assign you the seat you need. However, Amtrak did not suggest or offer this. They suggested that I purchase a first class ticket, instead and told me that they won't do anything for a coach passenger.

"Even if you can't get the seat you want initially remember people do get off the train along the way, certainly protect your body with a blanket or something, or spend more time in the dinning car."

Thanks, but I was just seeking legal advice. I can take care of my medical needs.

"Make sure the conductor is aware of your needs so they can look out for a good seat in another car."

Well, yes. Amtrak advises that you call them, as I did, and let them know what you need so they can let the conductor know in advance. Which I did. Which resulted in Amtrak telling me that they advise disabled people not to travel coach, and that they could make no accommodations. This is what I a seeking legal advice about--do disabled persons who are not in wheelchairs have any rights to accommodations for travel on Amtrak. While it may be fine for some disabled folks to stand around on a train and wait while the conductor searches for a seat, and just do without if one is not found, that is not a solution for all disabled passengers.

"I think if you expect trouble you will find it and if you expect people to help they will if you ask."

In general, yes. However, this is not what I am posting on this board about as this is a board about legal advice.

Thanks for your time, anyway, in reading my post and responding.
 
T

TrainWrecked

Guest
"We get a manifest for every train. If there are special requests, we need to follow through with them."

Amtrak refused a special request. They said they cannot accommodate disabled passengers in coach.

"OR, if you sit in first class, they will help you with everything..."

That's wonderful that those folks who can afford first class tickets are accommodated. However, it's not what I am posting about. In fact, it feels like Amtrak said, "Sure, fork over another $600 and we'll help you out. But if you can't, forget it." Which is, well, just about what they did say.

"I just want to point out something. Conductors are in charge of the whole train, it is up to them to help you in any way you need. BUT, they only travel a certain amount of miles, then another gets on and he is in charge if the train. If the communication gets lost in between, then you might be ignored."

I am only asking about the seating, not any additional accommodations later on in the trip, so this is not an issue, the change of conductors.

"[Amtrak preaches] service, but it is all a bunch of crap."

So it appears to me. They preach ADA compliance on the Internet, and that appears to be a bunch of crap also.

"So, in closing, the railroad needs alot of improvement, and I would definitely be my own advocate, telling the person in the uniform walking through your car exactly what you need. If you get nervous when it comes near to your stop, just keep up with saying what you need."

This is not the problem, being my own advocate. The problem is very specific, it's just about getting the seat I need to be able to travel.

"AND, yes you are right, they do fall under ADA. If you complain you will get a free ticket, if you are hurt in some way, you will get a settlement."

The free ticket is worthless if I can't ride the train because I can't get the seating I need. But, not only do they not want to give me a free ticket, they want me to pay far more than most folks to just get a seat--they won't allow me to ride coach.

"One last thing, believe it or not people can be helpful. I have seen many passengers help out. I know traveling this way for you can be stressful, I'd still like to believe that the majority of the time a disabled person will get their needs met, I always look on the bright side of things."

It's not always possible to just take a chance. I have to catch the train quite a distance from where I live. So, I have to get to the train. If the train is full, and if the passengers can't accommodate me, then I could be in a difficult situation, having to get off the train in the middle of nowhere, without a means to get home, and my travel plans ruined. It's more than stressful, it's potentially dangerous. However, again, no matter what I expect from the other passengers, that's not what the ADA is about, and Amtrak knows it.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond.
 

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