An "unenthusiastic" parent

[mamabear70]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? MA

Hello, i was wondering if someone could provide some advice. Husband and I have been separated since May of last year, so just over 8 months. Until divorce filing (which I finally did about 4 weeks ago), we have been adhering to a verbal separation agreement in terms of custody and child support. We have two boys, 11 and 7. The "agreement" was basically whatever he decided, which reflects a parenting plan where I would have sole physical custody, and we'd share legal. I had proposed that we do shared physical custody as well because the kids miss their dad, I work 50 hours, and he works 35. It just made sense (or at least I thought it did.) He refused, wanting to stick to only the weekends from fri 6pm to Sun 6pm, and Wed evenings for only two hours.

In addition:

• He absolutely refuses to keep the children through Monday mornings on "his" weekends and take them to school, despite the fact that they have begged to spend more time with him and he lives a minute from the school. He cites that he cannot risk being late for work (he starts at 8:30, as do I and we have basically the same commute)
• He refuses to pick them up after school most nights, despite the fact that he gets out at 4:30, and I get out at 5:30 (they have to be picked up by 6 at the afterschool program), resulting in my harried and stressful race back to my town, often being late and charged late by-the-minute fees
• He refuses to take them on holidays when he doesn't work and I do
• He doesnt' want them on New Year's - ever
• Refused to care for my youngest when he had the stomach bug on "his" weekend
• I could go on and on

Because we cannot come to a consensus on the separation agreement, I went ahead and filed for divorce, and want to file a motion for temporary orders. My lawyer suggested a 4-way meeting, but my husband told me that he will not budge on the visitaiton and child custody (which he's been paying in good faith based on the state calculator). I feel like he has demonstrated that he is not a very enthusiastic parent, refuses any extra time proposed with his kids (including telling the kids they don't "have to" see him on his bday because it falls on mommy's weekend after they asked if they could - who does that?) (many of it documented in emails and texts), and clearly expects me to do all the heavy lifting in terms of the child rearing obligations. He basically just wants to be a visiting dad as opposed to doing some actual parenting. I have learned and accepted that I cannot count on him, but I am running myself ragged doing it all. So I think I'm going to forego the 4-way meeting with the attorneys, and file a motion for temporary orders, requesting full physical AND legal custody, and consideration for a higher child support order than what the state mandates. This is because due to his refusal to co-parent, I am going to have to hire someone to help me pick up the kids in the evenings, and watch them when I have to work on given holidays or during Christmas and Spring break or on holidays that I work and he doesn't, etc.

Would a judge be likely to consider this, given his lack of desire to pitch in with his time?

Oh, and not sure if this would even matter in a child custody/support hearing, but he has been abusive with me in the past, even after he initially left the home. I have photos and a police report. Does this help paint a picture of conduct? And does it matter?


Thx in advance.

 

[Proserpina]

May we just clarify please?

You are wanting to punish Dad because he won't agree to your terms?

So I think I'm going to forego the 4-way meeting with the attorneys, and file a motion for temporary orders, requesting full physical AND legal custody, and consideration for a higher child support order than what the state mandates. This is because due to his refusal to co-parent, I am going to have to hire someone to help me pick up the kids in the evenings, and watch them when I have to work on given holidays or during Christmas and Spring break or on holidays that I work and he doesn't, etc.

Is that correct?

 

[mamabear70]

Happy to clarify. The answer to your question is a resounding "nope."

• I have a higher cost of childcare due to his refusal to help, hence the request for higher amount (although I guess if I factor that into the calculation, it will probably take care of it)
• His actions demonstrate an unwillingness to parent. I propose term after term after term, and he refuses. Cant' force him. Don't want to force him. But we need to come to some kind of decision.
• When I asked him about the 4-way meeting to try and compromise, he refused. Given this, I don't see any other way than to go in front of a judge and present our cases.
• As I mentioned, I can go on and on. I cannot parent with him. When I email him questions about school vacations, what time he is picking up or dropping off, etc. he rarely responds.

So I repeat my question: Will a judge take into consideration the fact that he is unwilling to parent AND an abusive history in a petition for sole legal custody? Also, how do courts tend to view parents who refuse to spend time with their kids? Curious...

Thank you.

 

[Proserpina]

Nope.

• I have a higher cost of childcare due to his refusal to help, hence the request for higher amount (although I guess if I factor that into the calculation, it will probably take care of it)

• 
  
  Okay.
  
  

  [*]His actions demonstrate an unwillingness to parent. I propose term after term after term, and he refuses. Cant' force him. Don't want to force him. But we need to come to some kind of decision.

  
  No, no it doesn't. He's actually proposing more than the standard NCP visitation schedule. Why must he agree with your terms?
  
  
  
  

  [*]When I asked him about the 4-way meeting to try and compromise, he refused. Given this, I don't see any other way than to go in front of a judge and present our cases.

  
  In your initial post, you were the one saying you intended to NOT attend the 4-way meeting AND request sole legal, because he won't agree to YOUR terms.
  
  

  [*] As I mentioned, I can go on and on. I cannot parent with him. When I email him questions about school vacations, what time he is picking up or dropping off, etc. he rarely responds.

  
  I'll be honest, Mom. I'm seeing more "will not" than "cannot" at the moment.
  
  But, I'm sure it goes both ways.
  
  
  

  So I repeat my question: Will a judge take into consideration the fact that he is unwilling to parent in a petition AND an abusive history for sole legal custody?
  
  Thank you.

  
  
  He's NOT being unwilling to parent. He just doesn't want to agree to what he thinks are your unreasonable terms.
  
  Re-read your initial post.
  
  You are indicating that you're fine with joint legal as long as he agrees to your demands when it comes to shared physical custody. If he won't, you want sole legal?
  
  I'm sorry, but honestly, if this goes before a judge there's a better-than-decent chance that you'll get joint legal with Dad having the standard NCP visitation if that's what HE wants.
  
  Child support will be calculated per state guidelines. Not your wishes.

 

[mamabear70]

Ok, I appreciate your perspective. And perhaps I could have been clearer: when I spoke to him about the 4-way meeting, he told me he didn't want that because there was nothing to talk about, he wasn't willing to compromise, etc. This is why I said that I was going to forego (trying to schedule that, as my attorney suggested before he gave that response).
I guess I am having a hard time communicating...it's not just about my terms. He also wants everything in his terms ONLY. I have been more than accomodating, flexible, etc. to his work schedule, when he has asked for changes, or has to work on a Sat. I just say, "ok, no problem." because I am understanding...but he doesn't budge with me if I'm running late and ask if he could get the kids until I get home, etc. I'M NOT THE ONE dictating terms; he is. If you consider this trying to punish him, then so be it. I just feel that if he CHOOSES to be such a part time dad, and I'm doing ALL of the parenting, while he's just visiting and refusing when the kids themselves ask to see him more then I should have sole legal custody. He doesn't stay in touch with schools, teachers, etc. Everything is on me. Once again, that is completely fine. And your sense is wrong...I CANNOT parent with an non-communicative person. Not that I don't want to. I have tried.

But thank you for answering my questions. Not sure why people are so quick to judge. I suppose it's because this is a free online forum, and there just simply isn't enough time to spell out all of the details and examples (it would be wayyy too long).

 

[Isis1]

Ok, I appreciate your perspective. And perhaps I could have been clearer: when I spoke to him about the 4-way meeting, he told me he didn't want that because there was nothing to talk about, he wasn't willing to compromise, etc. This is why I said that I was going to forego (trying to schedule that, as my attorney suggested before he gave that response).
I guess I am having a hard time communicating...it's not just about my terms. He also wants everything in his terms ONLY. I have been more than accomodating, flexible, etc. to his work schedule, when he has asked for changes, or has to work on a Sat. I just say, "ok, no problem." because I am understanding...but he doesn't budge with me if I'm running late and ask if he could get the kids until I get home, etc. I'M NOT THE ONE dictating terms; he is. If you consider this trying to punish him, then so be it. I just feel that if he CHOOSES to be such a part time dad, and I'm doing ALL of the parenting, while he's just visiting and refusing when the kids themselves ask to see him more then I should have sole legal custody. He doesn't stay in touch with schools, teachers, etc. Everything is on me. Once again, that is completely fine. And your sense is wrong...I CANNOT parent with an non-communicative person. Not that I don't want to. I have tried.

But thank you for answering my questions. Not sure why people are so quick to judge. I suppose it's because this is a free online forum, and there just simply isn't enough time to spell out all of the details and examples (it would be wayyy too long).

can i throw something out there? i had a non communicative parent as well. i found the absolute fix it for this.

"hey dad. so i'm doing this and this on such and such date. if i don't hear from you on such and such date before such and such time, you are agreeing to the arrangement. if not, let me know."


this allows dad to not respond unless he's against it. it literally has been the best thing ever.

 

[mamabear70]

can i throw something out there? i had a non communicative parent as well. i found the absolute fix it for this.

"hey dad. so i'm doing this and this on such and such date. if i don't hear from you on such and such date before such and such time, you are agreeing to the arrangement. if not, let me know."


this allows dad to not respond unless he's against it. it literally has been the best thing ever.

Hmmm, interesting. Might work. I guess for now I'm trying to keep these conversations away from the kids. But maybe when they get older, and process the circumstances ont heir own, that might be a good approach. Thanks!

Child support will be calculated per state guidelines. Not your wishes.

Not necessarily. State guidelines (at least in MA) do take into consideration child care costs. My attorney said we can make a case for the judge to order more than the state guidelines (which he/she can do) if we make a case for it. Of course, it can be denied, yes. But it does happen.

 

[Eekamouse]

Hmmm, interesting. Might work. I guess for now I'm trying to keep these conversations away from the kids. But maybe when they get older, and process the circumstances ont heir own, that might be a good approach. Thanks!



I'm sorry but how do you figure that suggestion implies bring the kids into it?

 

[Proserpina]

Not necessarily. State guidelines (at least in MA) do take into consideration child care costs. My attorney said we can make a case for the judge to order more than the state guidelines (which he/she can do) if we make a case for it. Of course, it can be denied, yes. But it does happen.

Oh, by all means stick with your attorney. (This is the same one you're about to bypass, right?). I'm sure your attorney explained that a deviation won't be ordered based purely upon your wishes.

I again suggest you re-read what you've written here tonight. And stick around the forums. Read. Educate yourself.

 

[potato]

Hmmm, interesting. Might work. I guess for now I'm trying to keep these conversations away from the kids. But maybe when they get older, and process the circumstances ont heir own, that might be a good approach. Thanks!



I'm sorry but how do you figure that suggestion implies bring the kids into it?

I think when you started it "hey dad" she assumed you were suggesting that message come from the kids.

Which I would guess is definitely NOT what you were suggesting.

 

[potato]

Oh, by all means stick with your attorney. (This is the same one you're about to bypass, right?). I'm sure your attorney explained that a deviation won't be ordered based purely upon your wishes.

I again suggest you re-read what you've written here tonight. And stick around the forums. Read. Educate yourself.

It sounds like there may be a confusion here.

Is it perhaps that child support in MA is calculated as a base child support amount, plus a amount for child care?

In that case, all you would need in order to get over the "guideline" amount is proof of the child care expenses. BAM- child support in excess of the guideline (sort of).

However you call it, I would guess he should pay some percentage of child care costs, so if you end up with a schedule that gives more child care costs, then it would make sense that he would have to pay more. (Of course, you would have to pay more, but you can't force him to take responsibility out of his ordered time- I would guess the guideline amounts are arrived at under the assumption that the custodial parent has 100% responsibility for all child care under the standard timehsharing schedule- which is what.. everything other than every other weekend and one night a week?)

It just sounds like words are being confused but multiple people are saying the same thing.

 

[Proserpina]

It sounds like there may be a confusion here.

Is it perhaps that child support in MA is calculated as a base child support amount, plus a amount for child care?

In that case, all you would need in order to get over the "guideline" amount is proof of the child care expenses. BAM- child support in excess of the guideline (sort of).

However you call it, I would guess he should pay some percentage of child care costs, so if you end up with a schedule that gives more child care costs, then it would make sense that he would have to pay more. (Of course, you would have to pay more, but you can't force him to take responsibility out of his ordered time- I would guess the guideline amounts are arrived at under the assumption that the custodial parent has 100% responsibility for all child care under the standard timehsharing schedule- which is what.. everything other than every other weekend and one night a week?)

It just sounds like words are being confused but multiple people are saying the same thing.

Read the first post, potato

Heck, I feel like triple sad face with this thread.

 

[potato]

I read all the posts.

She said she was considering asking for "consideration for a higher child support order than what the state mandates. This is because due to his refusal to co-parent, I am going to have to hire someone to help me pick up the kids in the evenings, and watch them when I have to work on given holidays or during Christmas and Spring break or on holidays that I work and he doesn't, etc"

All I was saying was that if "what the state mandates" is the base amount calculated based on income, then inclusion of an increase due to his portion of child care expenses would be "higher child support than what the state mandates" (even though it really isn't, it's just a misunderstanding of what the state mandates).

Whatever, I am probably confused- do what your lawyer says!

And if you are really going to fill out all the data fields in the calculation, then ask for more money cause he is a lackluster parent- please let us know how that works out for you. I know some places deviate down for parents who are more involved than the "default" non-custodial parent, but I've never heard of someone successfully arguing to deviate up because the other parent is less involved. If that is truly what your attorney is contemplating arguing for you I am curious how that turns out.

 

[mamabear70]

Oh, by all means stick with your attorney. (This is the same one you're about to bypass, right?). I'm sure your attorney explained that a deviation won't be ordered based purely upon your wishes.

I again suggest you re-read what you've written here tonight. And stick around the forums. Read. Educate yourself.

Proserpina, not sure why you seem negative or hostile? And I do apologize if I'm not clear. I am NOT bypassing my attorney. I am bypassing a 4-way sit down because he said he doesn't care to do that. It is not mandatory and no one can force him. So I'm rejecting one of the options given by my attorney (try to work out compromises vs. going in for temporary orders). This is mostly because: there is no real consistency on his part. He chooses which days he does and does not take them. Decides at times on a whim to change up the weeknights he sees them because he "has something to do" (I've been very flexible and never given him a hard time, but come on!), disappointing the kids AND messing up our schedule. So, clearly, we NEED to have a defined parenting plan, no? And if we can't agree, then we have to go in for temporary orders.

I think when you started it "hey dad" she assumed you were suggesting that message come from the kids.

Which I would guess is definitely NOT what you were suggesting.

Yes, that's what I thought Eekamouse was suggesting. Since you said "I had a parent..." (i thought you meant one of YOUR parents...sorry) I thought the quote was a message from you, the child. I did misunderstand.

And potato, you are right. In the state of Massachusetts, child support guidelines take income and child care expenses (as well as the kids' health insurance, which he asked me to take on when we first separated, which I did well, because they're my kids and he didn't want to cover them anymore). So in our current "calculation" we only input the after school care, which only goes 'til 6pm. Since I don't get out of work until 5:30, I often times cannot make it on time and get charged late fees (at $2/minute). This mad rush occurs 4/days a week, and sometimes I have to stay past 5:30, which makes it worse. I have asked if he could just pick them up a few more days a week until I can get to them, and he has refused. His refusal is causing me to have to hire someone to help pick them up on time, so dinner is at a decent hour, etc. AFter posting about the child support, I realized that duh, I just need to re-do the calculation.

I AM trying to educate myself, which is why I'm asking the questions. I have been extremely amenable and flexible and have followed HIS terms. But, seriously, why does HE get to make the terms? Legally, I am not the custodial parent. We are still married and share custody, but he refuses to co-parent. That's fine. I do not object to parenting full time. But I too work full time (wayyy more than him) and I just need help because he refuses even though he can. Yes, he is selfish. Yes, he does not miss his kids or care for any "extra" time with them. And yes, they are feeling it. Yes, they have cried to him when he wouldn't spend the 4th of July with them, for example. Or Veteran's Day (because I had to work and he didn't). Or most three day weekends that he has them. They don't care about what the "standard" is, they just miss their dad. :-(. I know that is not a legal issue. But when you have a parent who doesn't care, spends minimal time with them, and tells them to "stop acting like babies" when they ask him things like why they can't watch the superbowl together (to which he always replies vaguely, "because I have plans" every.single.time), it really does seem like he is not interested in parenting. Just visiting.




Thank you

 

[mommyof4]

OP, let me ask you a question and you need to really, really clearly think about the answer.

How independently involved was Dad with the kids before the separation? That means without your prodding, his reluctance, etc.? You mentioned issues of abuse. Toward just you or the kids, too?

Now that you have thought about it, is it any big surprise to you that he is not overly enthusiastic to be involved now?

Obviously, this is not focusing on the legal aspects of your post. I am responding to the disappointment you state your children are experiencing and expressing. You need to find a way to help your children deal with the reality that Dad, while he loves them, doesn't always have them lised as his #1 priority. Counseling is going to be beneficial here.