ANOTHER Ebay libel question

[vintageneedl]

What is the name of your state? NC

What is the name of your state? North Carolina

I sell stuff on Ebay. On February 24 I had an auction close for a 'lot' of video games. Charming fellow that was my 'winner' lives in Ohio. Charming fellow emails me and says he's sending a money order. Two weeks later I receive an email saying mail was returned as 'underliverable'. I email him back saying address was correct, resend. I hear nothing. At approximately 3 weeks post-auction, I open an unpaid item dispute, he responds, claiming I haven't answered his email about my address. I close the dispute, receive my final value fees back. Mr. Charming gets an unpaid item strike on the 22nd. On March 24 I leave Charming Fellow a negative that says: NONPAYING BIDDER - my address works fine for everyone but you.

Ok, ok, I fully expected to receive a negative back from him, and quite frankly, I didn't give a flip.

I arrive home from work on the 26th to find a priority mail envelope from Charming Fellow postmarked on the 23rd (the day I closed the unpaid item dispute and he got his strike) The money order is dated the 23rd. He has sent the envelope with delivery confirmation. On the evening of the 26th I receive feedback saying: LIAR AND THIEF. I sent money order and have delivery confirmation info.

On the 27th he opens an Item not Received report, to which I respond.

On the 28th I take the money order that I have received, and cut it into a billion (or maybe more) pieces, carefully place it in a piece of paper, neatly tape it together so the pieces don't fall out, and send it back to him via Priority Mail, delivery confirmation. He receives it the next day.

That day I receive an email from him stating that he has spoken to his postmaster, who has advised him that he is to advise them if he has not received his item or his money back. He then goes on to ask me if I did not read the back of the money order where it says 'destroying money order is a Federal Offense' blahblahblah. Ok, ok, no laughing. I SWEAR he said this.... I return an email to him, asking him to confirm that the postmaster who provided this information to him was XXX at XXX address, because I would be filing a report with the Postmaster General.

Thinking twice (which is not usually my style - the guy I work for says my MO is usually to throw in a grenade and then go in to pick up bodies) - but that's another story....

Being a good investigative reporter (well, not really...) I figure Charming Fellow is buying 'lots' of video games. He's reselling them. Well, I don't really care WHAT he's doing with them...but I'm looking for info on Charming Fellow. I have his name, address, and zip code, and an idea of what he's buying. I do a search for seller by zip code, and lo and behold, I strike gold on the very first hit. Charming Fellow is also a powerseller -- selling video games and accessories. He's got a ME page, with a picture of his family (and of course himself) -- his ME page touts his faith in God, blahblahblah.... His family is dressed in their Sunday best....and HE is wearing the vestments of a 'holy man' (Kind of gives new meaning to the phrase Holy XXXX). Anyway, this is the very same guy, his name is the same, he's selling the same stuff, he has the name XXX Family under the photo.... - there is no mistaking its the same guy. Which may explain the postmaster's reaction to MY news that Charming Fellow maybe ain't so charming after all.... Interestingly enough, the buyer of my auction (we'll call his ID Mr. X) has ALSO bid on some of the powerseller's auctions (we'll call HIS ID Mr. Y). They have even left each other FEEDBACK!!!

Anyway, I call the post office and ask to speak to the postmaster, mostly to find out if she REALLY did provide this info to Charming Fellow. Turns out she's not in. (wonder how he spoke with her? Me too!) - anyway, I carefully compose a letter to her, including a copy of his email to me claiming she has made these statements. I fax it to her the next morning, with a note that I will call her later in the afternoon. I call her, but she's out to lunch, and staff person asks for my work phone #. I provide it. She calls back when I am out to lunch and leaves a heated (and recorded) message about mail fraud and my having a contract with Charming fellow (he already GOT his money order back) -- I kid you not... the woman left this message on a RECORDING.

Ok, this is getting to long, but I don't want to leave any relevant things out....I call the postmaster back and read HER the riot act - and, my temper got the better of me, I also asked her if she was licensed to practice law in Ohio, as I was planning on submitting a complaint to the OBAssn. for practicing law without a license. You had to hear the message - she's giving me a lecture on CONTRACT LAW... Ok, ok, I lost it...

She backed down and I provided her with the details that Charming Fellow had left out, and informed her that MY contract with Charming Fellow ended when he failed to pay for his item within the specified period of time, and after I closed the Unpaid Item Dispute. She also confessed that my fax to her was the first she'd heard of any of this. Obviously, by now you know his email to ME about his postmaster was a big bluff. Yes, he REALLY is this um....well, I'd better not say....

Ok, I'm getting tired of typing and thinking, and you are probably getting tired of reading this saga....there are more details, but I'll be merciful and leave them out.

I have been leaving tidbits in his Item not Received dispute panel....he has ignored them.

TODAY he closes the item not received dispute with the comment:

Seller has openly stated both here and in feedback that she has received payment and yet refuses to refund money or ship product. If there is no protection from people like this on Ebay, then there is no protection on Ebay.

This comment is not seen by the 'public' per se - it is in the dispute panel - he sees it, I see it, and I suppose Ebay employees see it. He knows full well he received his money order back (even though it was shredded, and he will have to wait 60 days for the Post Office to be sure that it was not cashed, as it was missing a few numbers in the 'serial number' portion .) and therefore probably not easily identifiable....

Whew.... THAT was a long drawn out explanation, no?

Anyway, I do believe I need to take some sort of action against Charming Fellow. I'm not particularly interested in seeing any money out of the thing... I would LOVE to see criminal libel charges for him (mostly given his horrendous feedback on BOTH ID's) -- but I rather think the District Attorney has bigger fish to fry.....

My question(s): Does a NC District Court (not federal district court) have jurisdiction in the matter because it is internet libel? Would this be libel per se or per quod(?) (is that right?) -- or can it be both? Is it libel at all (because, technically, his feedback left is not completely untrue) -- but obviously the comment left in the dispute panel IS. If I were to file a complaint in the County District Court (if that is the appropriate forum) -- could I ask for an Order removing his feedback in my complaint? Would it fly?

Is anyone still awake after reading all this? If you are, kudos. And thanks in advance for your thoughts!

sue

 

[JETX]

Is anyone still awake after reading all this?

Get rid of all the NON-RELEVANT crap... and a responsible member might try to help.

 

[outonbail]

Yep, I actually read the entire post. But what's more important, is that I was able to understand a sentence or two. Pretty much a sour grapes sort of thing where the world may come to an end because of negative feedback being posted on ebay, Yada Yada Yada.
The biggy though, appears to be over a comment posted on a dispute panel and not seen by the public, which is basically labeling the OP as a liar and a thief.
The OP feels that her angelic character has been compromised, so she now wants to hang him by his jewels in either criminal or civil court.
I doubt anyone here is going to be able to convince her that neither court is going to give her what she wishes, because she is on a mission where common sense and logic are set aside for emotional drama and the opportunity to waste lots of money. Personally, I believe she just needs to get in the last word.
However, the other party in this school yard game of tit for tat, is just as determined to set reason aside, if it will blemish the OP's ebay selling history while he gets in the last word.

With any luck, either the OP or her sparring partner, will come to their senses and see the complete waste of time and energy they've already exhausted and for which their efforts have accomplished nothing. Then they can each put this adolescent crap behind them, get back to their daily routine and live happily ever after.

Ironically, the OP's name is Sue,,,, the noun, not the verb,,,,

 

[vintageneedl]

Wow, what a pleasant bunch of folks you are!

 

[Just Blue]

Wow, what a pleasant bunch of folks you are!

Thank goodness you don't have an FA money ordr to shread!!

 

[vintageneedl]

Some Moron here!

Well, outonbail, at least we can agree on ONE point!

Unfortunately, your reading comprehension skills appear to be lacking, as you can't seem to determine the difference between the feedback comment left and the comment left on the dispute console. In SPITE of my lengthy explanation.

I suppose one could give you 'points' for trying to make up for lack of substance with wit. Sadly, you wouldn't get many points for wit either.

I am curious though. Why bother to post and be nasty about it? Have you a big bunch of sour grapes like me?

 

[outonbail]

Some Moron here!

Well, outonbail, at least we can agree on ONE point!

Unfortunately, your reading comprehension skills appear to be lacking, as you can't seem to determine the difference between the feedback comment left and the comment left on the dispute console. In SPITE of my lengthy explanation.

On the evening of the 26th I receive feedback saying: LIAR AND THIEF. I sent money order and have delivery confirmation info.

Seller has openly stated both here and in feedback that she has received payment and yet refuses to refund money or ship product. If there is no protection from people like this on Ebay, then there is no protection on Ebay.

I see both comments as saying the same thing. The first, gets right to the point. The second, claims you openly stated something which you deny, (Liar) then claims you received payment and refuse to refund or ship product (Thief). If there is another interpretation of the second comment, please fill me in because I'm missing it.

I suppose one could give you 'points' for trying to make up for lack of substance with wit. Sadly, you wouldn't get many points for wit either.

Points? What good are points? I can't buy food with points, heck I can't even put gas in my car with points,,,,, so what's the point in receiving points?

I am curious though. Why bother to post and be nasty about it? Have you a big bunch of sour grapes like me?

Ouch! Not really trying to be nasty,,, facetious? well maybe a little,,,

I guess I deserve your wrath, I was pre-warned when you posted the following!

Thinking twice (which is not usually my style - the guy I work for says my MO is usually to throw in a grenade and then go in to pick up bodies) - but that's another story....

However, I still believe that your wasting your time by trying to get the courts involved in your little spat over an ebay sale gone bad. I didn't read anywhere in your post, a claim that you have lost money over this incident. However, that is where your headed if you plan on paying a lawyer to sue this guy over something for which you can prove no actual damages. Do people think less of you because of this person's bad feedback? Have other ebayers cancelled their orders or refused to do business with you because of this feedback?
Even if this were the case, you will then have to prove that his feedback and/or comments were not only false, but "outrageous" and intentially planned and posted with the sole purpose of ruining your reputation. But is this possible? Well, you admitted yourself the following:

Is it libel at all (because, technically, his feedback left is not completely untrue)

So what do you really expect to accomplish?
I know you don't want to hear what I'm suggesting, but this is really got to be a big waste of time for you.
Don't get me wrong, you can sue just about anyone you want to sue. I'm just suggesting that you consider the fact that you will spend lots of money doing so, with no chance of being awarded and then collecting any monetary judgment from this ebay dispute. So what is your motivation here? Is there anything positive that you believe will come from continuing to persue litigation over this? Or is it the "principal of the thing" your fighting over now?

Your chances of seeing any profit out of this whole mess flew out the window when you cut the guys cashier check up into a "billion (or maybe more) pieces"

You really need to put this unfruitful event behind you and move on.

 

[MyHouse]

I sell on eBay too... You're going to run into a few crazy people and it's best to just move on. Just file the complaint through eBay and respond nicely to the negative feedback. IMO if you are an ass in responding to your negative feedback then it makes you look even worse.

 

[vintageneedl]

OUTonbail - my apologies to you if in fact you were not trying to be 'nasty' as your posting above indicates. I have read numerous threads on numerous message boards. I find as a general rule, a poster who offers no answers to specific questions raised, but rather sees fit to opine on the character of the original poster and their 'motive' for such posting....well, let's just say - makes one wonder about the motivation for the responsive post in the first place. Again, my sincere apology if this does not, in fact, apply to you.

As to those who did not like the length of my post - I would venture a guess that you have never had the 'pleasure' of having client provide you with a half-baked version of their 'case'. Of course, that client would leave out those portions of the 'story' that do not reflect favorably upon him (or her). Since an intelligent answer can rarely be formed without the benefit of a COMPLETE history, I am amazed at the balking I've seen because of the length of my post.

My original post said that feedback left (which IS there for all the world to see) makes the accusation that I am a LIAR and a THIEF. I am neither. The remainder of his post says that he has delivery confirmation showing proof of payment. This portion of his feedback left for me is true, only because he made payment AFTER the fact.

If in fact, you had read my entire posting, you might have noticed the questions about libel per se and libel per quod - and wondered - hey....could there be a difference and might there be a purpose to her question? In fact, there IS a difference between the two.

Of course, you would already know that persons who are libeled per se do not have to prove that they suffered damage to their reputations, monetary loss or other injury.

You would additionally be aware that persons who are libeled per quod means something entirely different, and therefore would likely have a different defenses.

You might also understand that my buyer's payment after the unpaid item dispute was closed - and the fact that he sent his payment via delivery confirmation, waited for his package to show as 'delivered' and THEN left his feedback about having 'proof' - might...just MIGHT be taken as MALICE.

In fact, the post that my buyer made prior to closing his 'item not received' complaint - (the one shown in the dispute console -- which is NOT seen by the general public) says that I have refused to refund his money or send his item. As can be seen by reading the sequence of events posted in my original post (ummmm what was I saying about FULL DISCLOSURE?) -- that he posted this little tidbit AFTER he had received his money order via return mail.

So, you tell me. DO both comments say the same thing?

No, you didn't read anywhere in my post that I had lost money over this incident. Do you suspect that perhaps this is what precipitated my questions about libel per se and libel per quod and malice? Does everything need to be about MONEY? Ebay refuses to remove feedback without A COURT ORDER.

Nowhere in my original post did I mention hiring a lawyer, or spending lots of money. Were I to make the same assumptions about you that you seem to have made about me.... well, what do you suppose I would make of your misuse of the word 'your' throughout your post? I hesitate to post the options, lest I be further accused of being 'a charmer'.

I was, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that this was a message board inhabited by professionals. My mistake - believe me, a mistake I won't repeat.

 

[Zigner]

I was, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that this was a message board inhabited by professionals. My mistake - believe me, a mistake I won't repeat.

I'll tell you what - you weren't libeled. Now, that solves all your problems

 

[moburkes]

You didn't return his money. An example would be to reverse a credit card transaction, or give cash back, or send a replacement payment after you've cashed his payment. You did none of the above.

 

[outonbail]

Ok, ok, I fully expected to receive a negative back from him, and quite frankly, I didn't give a flip.

Ok, ok, no laughing. I SWEAR he said this.... I return an email to him, asking him to confirm that the postmaster who provided this information to him was XXX at XXX address, because I would be filing a report with the Postmaster General.

Thinking twice (which is not usually my style - the guy I work for says my MO is usually to throw in a grenade and then go in to pick up bodies) - but that's another story....

Being a good investigative reporter (well, not really...) I figure Charming Fellow is buying 'lots' of video games. He's reselling them. Well, I don't really care WHAT he's doing with them...but I'm looking for info on Charming Fellow. I have his name, address, and zip code, and an idea of what he's buying. I do a search for seller by zip code, and lo and behold, I strike gold on the very first hit. Charming Fellow is also a powerseller -- selling video games and accessories. He's got a ME page, with a picture of his family (and of course himself) -- his ME page touts his faith in God, blahblahblah.... His family is dressed in their Sunday best....and HE is wearing the vestments of a 'holy man' (Kind of gives new meaning to the phrase Holy XXXX). Anyway, this is the very same guy, his name is the same, he's selling the same stuff, he has the name XXX Family under the photo.... - there is no mistaking its the same guy. Which may explain the postmaster's reaction to MY news that Charming Fellow maybe ain't so charming after all.... Interestingly enough, the buyer of my auction (we'll call his ID Mr. X) has ALSO bid on some of the powerseller's auctions (we'll call HIS ID Mr. Y). They have even left each other FEEDBACK!!!

Anyway, I call the post office and ask to speak to the postmaster, mostly to find out if she REALLY did provide this info to Charming Fellow. Turns out she's not in. (wonder how he spoke with her? Me too!) - anyway, I carefully compose a letter to her, including a copy of his email to me claiming she has made these statements. I fax it to her the next morning, with a note that I will call her later in the afternoon. I call her, but she's out to lunch, and staff person asks for my work phone #. I provide it. She calls back when I am out to lunch and leaves a heated (and recorded) message about mail fraud and my having a contract with Charming fellow (he already GOT his money order back) -- I kid you not... the woman left this message on a RECORDING.

Ok, this is getting to long, but I don't want to leave any relevant things out....I call the postmaster back and read HER the riot act - and, my temper got the better of me, I also asked her if she was licensed to practice law in Ohio, as I was planning on submitting a complaint to the OBAssn. for practicing law without a license. You had to hear the message - she's giving me a lecture on CONTRACT LAW... Ok, ok, I lost it...

She backed down and I provided her with the details that Charming Fellow had left out, and informed her that MY contract with Charming Fellow ended when he failed to pay for his item within the specified period of time, and after I closed the Unpaid Item Dispute. She also confessed that my fax to her was the first she'd heard of any of this. Obviously, by now you know his email to ME about his postmaster was a big bluff. Yes, he REALLY is this um....well, I'd better not say....

Ok, I'm getting tired of typing and thinking, and you are probably getting tired of reading this saga....there are more details, but I'll be merciful and leave them out.

I have been leaving tidbits in his Item not Received dispute panel....he has ignored them.
He knows full well he received his money order back (even though it was shredded, and he will have to wait 60 days for the Post Office to be sure that it was not cashed, as it was missing a few numbers in the 'serial number' portion .) and therefore probably not easily identifiable....

Whew.... THAT was a long drawn out explanation, no?

Is anyone still awake after reading all this? If you are, kudos. And thanks in advance for your thoughts!

sue

All of the above information could have been left out of your post and it wouldn't have affected the advice you would have received. The reason the comment was made about the length of your post is because the actual attorneys who post on this board are doing so out of kindness and of course, for free. They will rarely spend time on long posts as they don't have it to waste and it is also unfair to the many other posts the attorny would ordinarily read in the same amount of time they would spend deciphering you're post.
Everyone who has spent time on this board, is aware of the fact that very long posts don't receive very many replies as the attorney's can't afford to read a novel, in order to provide advice.
If they need further information from you, or clarification on any point, they will always ask. So the comment was made because you are new to the board and may not realize that you're (better?) chances of having an attorney reply to you're questions decrease as the length of your post increases.
It was made so you would go back and eliminate all the commentaries and play by play details, which the attorneys are not going to wade through, searching for the relevant details.

You haven't done this, but I think you still should, as it is to you're benefit.

I still stand by my opinion, that you are beating a dead horse and placing too much weight on this persons negative feedback. As one person has already posted, you will run into these jerks from time to time, don't dwell on them. If you spend this much time and effort with every problem child you have contact with via ebay, you'll never get anything productive accomplished.

I know that when I look at feedback, I expect to see two or three negative comments amongst hundreds of positive. This is business, it happens, you can't please everyone.

Don't let his feedback bother you, because it doesn't bother anyone else and it will not hurt your ebay sales one iota.

BTW, is this the only negative feedback you have received? I'm guessing it is and you're teed off about not having that 100@ positive feedback rating. Believe me, it's no big deal to anyone but you.

 

[Ohiogal]

and I agree you did not return this guy's money. You shredded his money order which means it is no good to him. The fact that you proceeded to act like a jerk -- well you got what you deserved.

 

[trieroffact]

Op you were libeled - unlike what little zigner says - but you would have to take it to civil and prove damages - something you have already discounted.