• FreeAdvice has a new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, effective May 25, 2018.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our Terms of Service and use of cookies.

Art 91 & 92

Accident - Bankruptcy - Criminal Law / DUI - Business - Consumer - Employment - Family - Immigration - Real Estate - Tax - Traffic - Wills   Please click a topic or scroll down for more.

kobun

Junior Member
Me and a friend of mine (I'll call him PV2 Murphy) were at the range today, and a specialist came up to him and me in a very aggressive manner and ordered us to help him pick up trash, which consequently was corrective training from an NCO. I did it, though a half-assed job, but my friend got up and walked like he was going to help, but instead stood there and did nothing. We are both PV2 in the army.

Two NCOs from my MST saw this, and one of them went up to the SPC and told him to report PV2 Murphy to his squad leader (the other NCO). The SPC did, and later PV2 Murphy told him that the squad leader told him that the SPC was a JUNIOR NCO!, and that he disobeyed an order from this SPC. He told him he would be counseling him and recommending him for Article 15. I talked to PV2 Murphy and told him that he has some rights that he didn't know about, and that he should in any event be reluctant to sign anything. I have no idea what the consequences of refusing to sign a counseling and/or disagreeing with the counseling on paper. But I told him definitely not to sign an Article 15, and that he might want to go talk to JAG about it. I also informed him that he had a right to a court-martial, and did not have to accept non-judicial punishment. I think in this case, the commander probably won't even recommend art 15 being that its nonsense, but I just wanted him to know his rights.

Anyway what I really need help with is some information. I figure if he shows up at work monday with some printouts showing that he knows his rights and that they're not going to snowball him, they will probably back down. I've found the text of Article 91 and 92, the only applicable articles i could find:


891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


The first article, 91, states that it must be an NCO in order to be guilty. This is enough to prove hes not guilty of that charge, however them saying that this SPC is a junior NCO is what bothers me. (sidenote this guy is super-jacked up and will never make e-5 anyways) I've found articles on wikipedia linked here. Corporal and Specialist. These references point out the difference between CPL (an NCO), and SPC (spefically says not an NCO).

The second article, 92, is a simple disobeying a lawful order. I cant find any definition of what a lawful order is in the UCMJ, and though it's obvious to me that a non-NCO can't give an order, I'd rather have something factual to give him to back him up. I'd like to know what the definition of a lawful order is, and would appreciate any links to actual references that I would be able to print out.

Thanks alot for reading.

--PV2 Kobun

P.S. This NCO (an e-5 btw), then called all the e-4 at the range for a meeting and I eavesdropped hearing him tell tham that they need to assert their authority, and these SPCs need to be direct, not ask for help, give orders to lower ranks and that if they don't listen that they can get them written up. Alot of these SPCs are jacked up first off. I also believe that there is a GOOD REASON that your supposed to go to a promotion board to receive NCO status, its because you can't just be giving out the ability to give orders willy-nilly just because people have time in service. This whole situation pisses me off which is part of the reason I'm so motivated to stick up for this guy.
 


Crazed98

Member
Spc as you said is not a Junior NCO but a SPC that is promotable is considered one.

If the NCO left the SPC in charge then yes you would have to do what the SPC said because then it would be in violation of the NCO's orders.

A lot of people think signing a counsel means you are admitting your guilt but it just means that you have read the statement and understand it. On it I believe you can put your own comments and that is where you can disagree if it is a negative counseling.

I doubt anything serious will happen to your friend unless he has a history of problems with authority.

From now on just reconfirm any orders that you don't think are up to par with the next in command.
 

SGT Stu

Junior Member
first no SPC is a "junior NCO" there is only 1 rank concidered JNCO and that is CPL. second your while i think that an article 15 is a lil over the top your friend should get a counciling. You and your friends are PV2's you are new to the army and probably dont know much about the army. that SPC (while he sounds like a bit of a douche) has the right to tell anyone that he out ranks to pick up trash, it is called general military athority. what your friend should have done is followed the orders of the SPC and police called the area, after he was done he should have called his NCO to correct that SPC. rank is given to people for a reason while not always deserving a SPC will know more about the army than a PV2 because he/she has been doing it longer. remember that you should always suck it up and drive on and try to take care of the issue properly at a later time.
 

ERAUPIKE

Senior Member
Me and a friend of mine (I'll call him PV2 Murphy) were at the range today, and a specialist came up to him and me in a very aggressive manner and ordered us to help him pick up trash, which consequently was corrective training from an NCO. I did it, though a half-assed job, but my friend got up and walked like he was going to help, but instead stood there and did nothing. We are both PV2 in the army.

Two NCOs from my MST saw this, and one of them went up to the SPC and told him to report PV2 Murphy to his squad leader (the other NCO). The SPC did, and later PV2 Murphy told him that the squad leader told him that the SPC was a JUNIOR NCO!, and that he disobeyed an order from this SPC. He told him he would be counseling him and recommending him for Article 15. I talked to PV2 Murphy and told him that he has some rights that he didn't know about, and that he should in any event be reluctant to sign anything. I have no idea what the consequences of refusing to sign a counseling and/or disagreeing with the counseling on paper. But I told him definitely not to sign an Article 15, and that he might want to go talk to JAG about it. I also informed him that he had a right to a court-martial, and did not have to accept non-judicial punishment. I think in this case, the commander probably won't even recommend art 15 being that its nonsense, but I just wanted him to know his rights.

Anyway what I really need help with is some information. I figure if he shows up at work monday with some printouts showing that he knows his rights and that they're not going to snowball him, they will probably back down. I've found the text of Article 91 and 92, the only applicable articles i could find:


891. ART. 91. INSUBORDINATE CONDUCT TOWARD WARRANT OFFICER, NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER, OR PETTY OFFICER
Any warrant officer or enlisted member who--
(1) strikes or assaults a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer, while that officer is in the execution of his office;
(2) willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
(3) treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
892. ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION
Any person subject to this chapter who--
(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;
(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or
(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties;
shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


The first article, 91, states that it must be an NCO in order to be guilty. This is enough to prove hes not guilty of that charge, however them saying that this SPC is a junior NCO is what bothers me. (sidenote this guy is super-jacked up and will never make e-5 anyways) I've found articles on wikipedia linked here. Corporal and Specialist. These references point out the difference between CPL (an NCO), and SPC (spefically says not an NCO).

The second article, 92, is a simple disobeying a lawful order. I cant find any definition of what a lawful order is in the UCMJ, and though it's obvious to me that a non-NCO can't give an order, I'd rather have something factual to give him to back him up. I'd like to know what the definition of a lawful order is, and would appreciate any links to actual references that I would be able to print out.

Thanks alot for reading.

--PV2 Kobun

P.S. This NCO (an e-5 btw), then called all the e-4 at the range for a meeting and I eavesdropped hearing him tell tham that they need to assert their authority, and these SPCs need to be direct, not ask for help, give orders to lower ranks and that if they don't listen that they can get them written up. Alot of these SPCs are jacked up first off. I also believe that there is a GOOD REASON that your supposed to go to a promotion board to receive NCO status, its because you can't just be giving out the ability to give orders willy-nilly just because people have time in service. This whole situation pisses me off which is part of the reason I'm so motivated to stick up for this guy.
Your friend is going to stir more trouble than he can handle.
 

Find the Right Lawyer for Your Legal Issue!

Fast, Free, and Confidential
data-ad-format="auto">
Top