Bank vs. Family (Trust, POA)

[rottielover]

What is the name of your state? Missouri

First I want to apologize for spelling, etc. As I'm pretty upset at the moment... I should also mention that we are seaking out an Attorney to hire, but I thought it prudent to get some broad advice...

My Great Aunt is in the nursing home and has been declaried incomp. My mother has a Durable POA for her, and is also on her checking account jointly. My Aunt has a trust (I'm not 100% of the type) where the bank controls her stocks (only about $100,000 left after they lost most of it). The trust only puts about $1,000 into her checking a month, and this is no where near the cost of the nursing home. The trust has clauses in it that say she is entitled to the standard of living she was accustomed to (ie private room like she had with assisted living).

My mother asked the bank trustee's to liquidate $50,000 for her care, but they have refused. (the trust disolves automatically if there is only $50,000 left). They have been making too much money off her for too long....

Anyway, I noticed a clause that said the Grantor, had the right to revoke the trust at any time via written letter to the trustee's. Does that mean my mother as POA has the right to revoke the trust so that her stocks can be sold to pay for her care?

Another question, the bank told my mother that she needed to be added as a trustee, and sent her paperwork to complete (we are waiting until we get a lawyer though) and told her that she is not entitled to ANY money in the JOINT checking account, and must provide the bank with spreadsheets for every penny to show that the money is ONLY used to pay the nursing home.... Well the problem here is that my Aunt has always paid for my siblings education (two still in college). So now money that she had told my mother was to pay for tuition cannot be touched (per the bank). Since it's a joint account (mom is a signer on the account) shouldn't she be entitled to 1/2 of what's in there or the whole ammount?

Anyway, I apologize for the broad scope, and I realize that you'd probly need to read the trust documents in order to provide a complete answer, but I want to make sure that when we hire the lawyer, we ask the right questions etc.

I am greatful for any help!

 

[BlondiePB]

What is the name of your state? Missouri

First I want to apologize for spelling, etc. As I'm pretty upset at the moment... I should also mention that we are seaking out an Attorney to hire, but I thought it prudent to get some broad advice...

My Great Aunt is in the nursing home and has been declaried incomp. My mother has a Durable POA for her, and is also on her checking account jointly. My Aunt has a trust (I'm not 100% of the type) where the bank controls her stocks (only about $100,000 left after they lost most of it). The trust only puts about $1,000 into her checking a month, and this is no where near the cost of the nursing home. The trust has clauses in it that say she is entitled to the standard of living she was accustomed to (ie private room like she had with assisted living).

My mother asked the bank trustee's to liquidate $50,000 for her care, but they have refused. (the trust disolves automatically if there is only $50,000 left). They have been making too much money off her for too long....

Anyway, I noticed a clause that said the Grantor, had the right to revoke the trust at any time via written letter to the trustee's. Does that mean my mother as POA has the right to revoke the trust so that her stocks can be sold to pay for her care?

Another question, the bank told my mother that she needed to be added as a trustee, and sent her paperwork to complete (we are waiting until we get a lawyer though) and told her that she is not entitled to ANY money in the JOINT checking account, and must provide the bank with spreadsheets for every penny to show that the money is ONLY used to pay the nursing home.... Well the problem here is that my Aunt has always paid for my siblings education (two still in college). So now money that she had told my mother was to pay for tuition cannot be touched (per the bank). Since it's a joint account (mom is a signer on the account) shouldn't she be entitled to 1/2 of what's in there or the whole ammount?

Anyway, I apologize for the broad scope, and I realize that you'd probly need to read the trust documents in order to provide a complete answer, but I want to make sure that when we hire the lawyer, we ask the right questions etc.

I am greatful for any help!

Please clarify: are there two accounts -- one a trust account and one a joint account not in trust?

 

[rottielover]

oops

Sorry, I should have clarified...

The checking account is "stand-alone". Just a Checking account that has both names on it.

The "Trust" is seperate, there are stocks held in the trust by the "trustees" (the bank). The Trust pays out via a direct deposit into the checking account, but that checking is not "in" the trust.

 

[BlondiePB]

Sorry, I should have clarified...

The checking account is "stand-alone". Just a Checking account that has both names on it.

The "Trust" is seperate, there are stocks held in the trust by the "trustees" (the bank). The Trust pays out via a direct deposit into the checking account, but that checking is not "in" the trust.

Thank you. I do have one more question. Did your mother deposit any of her OWN money in this stand alone joint account?

 

[rottielover]

?

I have no idea. I know that they have been joint account holders for 8 years, so I would assume that in that time she has deposited money and written checks as well.

 

[BlondiePB]

I have no idea. I know that they have been joint account holders for 8 years, so I would assume that in that time she has deposited money and written checks as well.

The only money your mother is entitled to is money from the joint account that she can PROVE that she deposited LESS any money that she has spent on her OWN expenses.

Great Auntie's money is to be spent on her first. The trustee does not have to honor the POA. The trustee has every right to request the proof that the money will be spent on great aunt. With that proof, the trustee has the right to request a court order to authorize them, the trustee, to pay the nursing home.

You need to find another way to fund your children's college education as great auntie money be spent on her needs FIRST.

 

[rottielover]

The only money your mother is entitled to is money from the joint account that she can PROVE that she deposited LESS any money that she has spent on her OWN expenses.

Great Auntie's money is to be spent on her first. The trustee does not have to honor the POA. The trustee has every right to request the proof that the money will be spent on great aunt. With that proof, the trustee has the right to request a court order to authorize them, the trustee, to pay the nursing home.

You need to find another way to fund your children's college education as great auntie money be spent on her needs FIRST.

Actually it's my little brothers education.



I'm going to hire a local attn. the bank is trying to put her in the cheapest room they can find, even though she was in a private room in Assisted Living, there is a clause in her trust that states she's entitled to the standard of living she has become accustomed too, I think the bank should be made to honor that.


One more question on joint accounts, to draw a parrelle here... My wife and I have a joint checking account and are both signers on the account. Both have our paychecks direct deposited into the account. Based on what your saying, my wife is only entitled to the money she deposits???? Then how exactly is it, that you hear of people that are signers on somones bank account, cleaning out the account on them???

 

[BlondiePB]

Actually it's my little brothers education.



I'm going to hire a local attn. the bank is trying to put her in the cheapest room they can find, even though she was in a private room in Assisted Living, there is a clause in her trust that states she's entitled to the standard of living she has become accustomed too, I think the bank should be made to honor that.


One more question on joint accounts, to draw a parrelle here... My wife and I have a joint checking account and are both signers on the account. Both have our paychecks direct deposited into the account. Based on what your saying, my wife is only entitled to the money she deposits???? Then how exactly is it, that you hear of people that are signers on somones bank account, cleaning out the account on them???

Being your little brother's education does not matter. What matter's is that great aunt is taken care of with her money which is what the trustee is doing. A judge will look at the cost of a semi-private room vs. a private room and will rule that great aunt be placed in a semi-private room. There's a huge difference between a private assisted living room suite and a private nursing home room. And, a huge difference between a private nursing home room and a semi-private room. Due to the thousands of dollars a month in the difference, the trustee is acting properly. A judge would agree.

 

[rottielover]

"Being your little brother's education does not matter."

I was just correcting you, not my kids, my brothers. If they have to get loans, so-be-it, we are most concerned with her care, and the bank is trying to sabotage it.

"What matter's is that great aunt is taken care of with her money which is what the trustee is doing. A judge will look at the cost of a semi-private room vs. a private room and will rule that great aunt be placed in a semi-private room. There's a huge difference between a private assisted living room suite and a private nursing home room. And, a huge difference between a private nursing home room and a semi-private room. Due to the thousands of dollars a month in the difference, the trustee is acting properly. A judge would agree."

I would agree if you were comparing apples to apples, but the bank is talking about moving her from the current nursing home to a cheaper home, not from one room to another in the same home. None of the family like what we see in that nursing home. Lower standards of care, less staff, etc.

If the bank was talking about moving her from private to semi-private IN THE SAME HOME, I don't think there would be an issue, as we all like the home she's in now. However, they are wanting her moved to a "cheaper" nursing home. To me that's NOT RIGHT.

At this rate, why on earth would anyone ever want to put anything in a trust? The bank is losing her money in bad stock's right and left. If it continues the way they've been going, the trust will be a moot point because it dissolves automatically at $50,000, and at the current rate of decline we'll reach that in just under 5 months! They are going to leave her just about pennyless arn't they?

 

[BlondiePB]

"Being your little brother's education does not matter."

I was just correcting you, not my kids, my brothers. If they have to get loans, so-be-it, we are most concerned with her care, and the bank is trying to sabotage it.

"What matter's is that great aunt is taken care of with her money which is what the trustee is doing. A judge will look at the cost of a semi-private room vs. a private room and will rule that great aunt be placed in a semi-private room. There's a huge difference between a private assisted living room suite and a private nursing home room. And, a huge difference between a private nursing home room and a semi-private room. Due to the thousands of dollars a month in the difference, the trustee is acting properly. A judge would agree."

I would agree if you were comparing apples to apples, but the bank is talking about moving her from the current nursing home to a cheaper home, not from one room to another in the same home. None of the family like what we see in that nursing home. Lower standards of care, less staff, etc.

If the bank was talking about moving her from private to semi-private IN THE SAME HOME, I don't think there would be an issue, as we all like the home she's in now. However, they are wanting her moved to a "cheaper" nursing home. To me that's NOT RIGHT.

At this rate, why on earth would anyone ever want to put anything in a trust? The bank is losing her money in bad stock's right and left. If it continues the way they've been going, the trust will be a moot point because it dissolves automatically at $50,000, and at the current rate of decline we'll reach that in just under 5 months! They are going to leave her just about pennyless arn't they?

Who is auntie's health care surrogate?

 

[rottielover]

My mother is. To my mind the Bank is attempting to over step it's bounds.

 

[BlondiePB]

My mother is. To my mind the Bank is attempting to over step it's bounds.

In this instance, I agree that the trustee is crossing the line. I do know for a fact about sub-standard nursing home care, seeing it for myself. Have your mother move auntie to a semi-private room in the same nursing home. Have your mother put in writing that your mother is not to be moved from the nursing home. Admissions and the nursing station each need a copy of this and the paper designating mom that she is the health care surrogate if this is not all ready done in both places.

Your mother can inquire about guardianship over auntie. This does not mean that the trustee has to release the funds from the trust. The trustee will not do so unless this is court ordered.

The court does understand about stocks losing money. Other than myself, I only know of one other person that had not lost money in the stock market. Due to auntie's age, she needs more secure capital investments. Should the trust dissolve, mom still must spent auntie's money on auntie, not a penny can go to the education of your brother.

People do set up trusts so that their money is not stolen, mainly from their own families. Have your mother inquire about guardianship/conservatorship for aunt. Also, include a plan for her money. However, it will be up to a judge whether or not to order the money out of the trust. In any event, the guardianship will ensure that auntie is taken care of with her own money.

 

[rottielover]

In this instance, I agree that the trustee is crossing the line. I do know for a fact about sub-standard nursing home care, seeing it for myself. Have your mother move auntie to a semi-private room in the same nursing home. Have your mother put in writing that your mother is not to be moved from the nursing home. Admissions and the nursing station each need a copy of this and the paper designating mom that she is the health care surrogate if this is not all ready done in both places.

Your mother can inquire about guardianship over auntie. This does not mean that the trustee has to release the funds from the trust. The trustee will not do so unless this is court ordered.

The court does understand about stocks losing money. Other than myself, I only know of one other person that had not lost money in the stock market. Due to auntie's age, she needs more secure capital investments. Should the trust dissolve, mom still must spent auntie's money on auntie, not a penny can go to the education of your brother.

People do set up trusts so that their money is not stolen, mainly from their own families. Have your mother inquire about guardianship/conservatorship for aunt. Also, include a plan for her money. However, it will be up to a judge whether or not to order the money out of the trust. In any event, the guardianship will ensure that auntie is taken care of with her own money.

I deeply resent the implication that we (her family) are after her money. She's 94 years old, and my mother is the sole benificiary of the trust, if we wanted the money, we'd let the bank move her to whatever hell-hole nursing home they wanted and just sit back and wait.

INSTEAD- we are trying to fight for HER wishes, and to get her the BEST level of care possible.

I thank you for your advice, and I will mention it to our lawyer.

 

[BlondiePB]

I deeply resent the implication that we (her family) are after her money. She's 94 years old, and my mother is the sole benificiary of the trust, if we wanted the money, we'd let the bank move her to whatever hell-hole nursing home they wanted and just sit back and wait.

INSTEAD- we are trying to fight for HER wishes, and to get her the BEST level of care possible.

I thank you for your advice, and I will mention it to our lawyer.

You asked the question why do people put their money in trust. All I did was provide you with an answer in addition to answers for your other questions along with directives to assist you with keeping auntie where she is rather than going to a "hell-hole" nursing home.

I can tell by answers to my questions, what the intentions are of the poster. The answer to your question was not directed to implying that you or your mother intending to steal auntie's money because of your replies to my answers. It was JUST an answer. Now, if the shoe fits....then that's another story.

 

[rottielover]

You asked the question why do people put their money in trust. All I did was provide you with an answer in addition to answers for your other questions along with directives to assist you with keeping auntie where she is rather than going to a "hell-hole" nursing home.

I can tell by answers to my questions, what the intentions are of the poster. The answer to your question was not directed to implying that you or your mother intending to steal auntie's money because of your replies to my answers. It was JUST an answer. Now, if the shoe fits....then that's another story.

Every reply you've given has had a comment similar to "auntie's money is for her", repeting this over and over in every post. You focused in on my passing comment about my brothers college, and ingnored 1/2 of my questions. You've done plenty to imply we are trying to steal her money, and now including the "shoe fits" comment.

"I can tell ... what the intentions are of the poster". Really? So in addition to you being a lawyer, your a psychic? I find that really interesting, please tell eveyone reading this thread, how you are able to exactly tell what the intentions of every poster are, just by reading words on a page.

I'm glad I've hired a local attorney; free advice = you get what you pay for.