Boolean???What is definition of 'income'???

[semantic]

What is the name of your state?Confusion

Well some views on my last post but no takers yet; so here's another angle:

Who can forget Clinton's 'well that depends on what your definition of 'is' is.....!

So what do the feds mean here when they ask you to state 'income' in a chpt.7? Before taxes, after taxes, not even bothering with what your tax returns say, selling fruit on the side of the road, a like exchange of goods, *owners draw in a corporation that resulted in a net loss anyway to the shareholder (me, the debtor, and owner who took the draw and bears the loss)*, WHAT, WHAT, WHAT, I ask!?

Forget about the easy to read and easy to understand 'income from employment, trade, profession, etc.....'.

Situation A: I state my income as the draw I took off the corporation, for which I paid for my living expenses (nothing left over). I go to court, the trustee sees I state income at, say, $50000 for the last 3 years, which in reality is what I paid for living expenses (rent, groceries, health insurance, car loan, credit card payments, medical bills not covered by ins., etc.etc.etc).
My tax returns, however, show a negative income of, say, $49000, because the loss of the corporation flows to me, the owner. So while I lived, I did not make any money, or 'income'. What the trustee does with that info I don't know.

Situation B: I state my income as it shows on my tax returns, which is all negative, in more ways than one. Trustee looks at it, looks at my expenses, and says, well sir, just how are you living? Selling fruit on the side of the road? I say, well Mr. Trustee, that depends on what your definition of 'income' is actually income. What the trustee does with that info, I don't know either.

If someone is in the know out there, I'll take any helpful insight you have to offer. Please don't tell me to state what I got from employment, technically, my corporation did not employ me, I just lived off it, or rather, I lived off the credit cards that supported the cash flow that kept my business going for as long as my credit cards could possibly do so.

Hope this isn't too complicated for the intellectuals out there (never claimed to be one!). I feel like I'm stuck in some kind of boolean logic puzzle....yuck.
thanks,
j.m.

 

[seniorjudge]

Your income is the money you take in.

http://www.answers.com/income&r=67

It's a very simple concept.

 

[semantic]

Thanks, I saw that one too on answers.com; call me a philosophical left-brained word-fetishist, but my hind quarters are riding on the line here;

I did not take any money in as income (no cash). I used the company's equity for my living expenses; shareholder/owner did not receive any money from the corporation as such. Does that still qualify as income?

It is not such a simple concept. I just want to know what the courts want in this regard. Since I really have no assets which I cannot exempt, what are the courts looking for here? My expenses were paid by the corporation. I did not receive a paycheck, dividends, glass beads, or other compensation.

thanks for all replies,
jm

 

[pojo2]

Stop playing word games! Your total ignorance and the whining for someone here to explain how you can commit fraud is obnoxious at minimal.

 

[bigun]

It is not such a simple concept. I just want to know what the courts want in this regard

Frankly, I think you're about to outsmart yourself.
If you really want to know what a court thinks about a way out in left field concept, retain an attorney.
Or, consider the checks you received from your corp. as income and if the trustee asks about the corp tax return then you answer the questions.

 

[semantic]

Stop playing word games! Your total ignorance and the whining for someone here to explain how you can commit fraud is obnoxious at minimal.

Must laugh! Word games indeed, I hardly consider filing bankruptcy a matter of word games, and if I was considering committing fraud then I wouldnt' be asking advice in a legal forum for an issue there is so little information about: income from s-corps.

Really, you should consider that there are real people not just alpha characters in a chat forum - get a life and maybe a pair of glasses for your myopia.

 

[semantic]

It is not such a simple concept. I just want to know what the courts want in this regard

Frankly, I think you're about to outsmart yourself.
If you really want to know what a court thinks about a way out in left field concept, retain an attorney.
Or, consider the checks you received from your corp. as income and if the trustee asks about the corp tax return then you answer the questions.

Your right, I am overthinking this, but can't afford an attorney. I did seek legal advice, but the attorneys I spoke with wanted 2K up front; I have two small children and if I can figure a way to do this myself I will.

I considered that perhaps I should just label the 'draw' from the corp as income, regardless of what my personal income tax says;

thanks for the considered replies - and to the loser above who thinks I am trying to commit fraud, consider this: I wouldn't be seeking a fresh start for myself, my wife, my two children, through fraud; whatever values you may hold for yourself that include possibilities of what you might do in a similar situation, please don't apply them to me.

I'm looking for advice, good advice, not abuse.

 

[HomeGuru]

Income= value, thus value may not be at all times cash.

 

[semantic]

thank you thank you; I do appreciate help with the simple question but for me not so simple concept.
I believe the correct thing to do is state the 'value' that is the corporate draw we've been living off as our income for the past few years; if asked by the trustee, I wouldn't know how to validate it other than produce the books for the corp, the tax returns, and cc statements. I am hoping it will not get that involved.

Anyone out there who has gone through more than the standard meetings? What should I bring with me to the first meeting with the trustee?

 

[bigun]

A couple of weeks after you file, you'll get a letter from the trustee informing you of the documentation they'll need.
Bring that and nothing more. You'll also need a picture ID and your SS card.