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Can't prove losses (gambling addiction)

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needtaxhelp

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

Long story short I had been addicted to gambling (slots) for 5+ years. I have not filed in those years because I honestly don't know where to start. I won between 200k-300k but put it all back and more into the slots. Can a CPA handle this or do I need to retain a tax attorney? How can I prove to the IRS I put all this money back? I did not keep a log or anything. Can they do a lifestyle audit? All replies greatly appreciated.
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Florida

Long story short I had been addicted to gambling (slots) for 5+ years. I have not filed in those years because I honestly don't know where to start. I won between 200k-300k but put it all back and more into the slots. Can a CPA handle this or do I need to retain a tax attorney? How can I prove to the IRS I put all this money back? I did not keep a log or anything. Can they do a lifestyle audit? All replies greatly appreciated.
What about win/loss records from the casino?
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Unfortunately I did not utilize a card.
Well, you definitely need a tax professional on board. You need to get all the tax returns prepared and see exactly where you stand. Its possible that you can take some losses safely, because even the IRS recognizes that nobody is going win consistently over a 5 year period. Once the returns are put together and you know where you stand, the tax professional will be able to tell you whether or not it might do you any good to consult a tax attorney.

And yes, banking records and a lifestyle audit can help prove your losses, assuming that you did not use cash to gamble most or all of the time.
 

davew128

Senior Member
I'm calling BS. I don't know anybody who goes to a casino more than occasionally who doesn't get a players club for the casino. I haven't gone to one in almost four years and I have cards.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I'm calling BS. I don't know anybody who goes to a casino more than occasionally who doesn't get a players club for the casino. I haven't gone to one in almost four years and I have cards.
I have quite a few clients who are inconsistent in using their cards.
 

needtaxhelp

Junior Member
I'm calling BS. I don't know anybody who goes to a casino more than occasionally who doesn't get a players club for the casino. I haven't gone to one in almost four years and I have cards.
I wish it were BS or I would not be in this mess trying to figure out how to prove the losses.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
Getting back on subject. If you don't have reasonable documentation, you can't claim the loss. Records from the casino players club would have worked, so would contemporaneous records you kept. You have neither. You can't offset your winnings. Note, that your offset (even when you can prove them) only applies to the year they occurred in. Had some guys in the poker group who were in a cross-newyears poker bender who won big before midnight and then lost later.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
Getting back on subject. If you don't have reasonable documentation, you can't claim the loss. Records from the casino players club would have worked, so would contemporaneous records you kept. You have neither. You can't offset your winnings. Note, that your offset (even when you can prove them) only applies to the year they occurred in. Had some guys in the poker group who were in a cross-newyears poker bender who won big before midnight and then lost later.
I am going to disagree just a little. If the OP can provide bank statements and credit card bills showing money going out to the casino(s) and nets it against winnings, it could be possible to demonstrate at least some of the losses.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
I am going to disagree just a little. If the OP can provide bank statements and credit card bills showing money going out to the casino(s) and nets it against winnings, it could be possible to demonstrate at least some of the losses.
That's not a disagreement, the IRS is pretty reasonable at allowing you to reconstruct records. However, it's likely he wasn't using credit cards in slot machines and I'm not sure what his bank statements are going to prove. Perhaps he can make assertions that any withdrawal made at a casino ATM was used expressly to support gambling but otherwise the fact he spent money probably isn't sufficient.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
That's not a disagreement, the IRS is pretty reasonable at allowing you to reconstruct records. However, it's likely he wasn't using credit cards in slot machines and I'm not sure what his bank statements are going to prove. Perhaps he can make assertions that any withdrawal made at a casino ATM was used expressly to support gambling but otherwise the fact he spent money probably isn't sufficient.
In California, the FTB would agree:

http://taxdood.com/2012/04/01/same-old-story-without-diary-gambling-loss-disallowed/

"The taxpayer made a final effort to support the gambling loss deduction by providing bank records reflecting ATM cash withdrawals at various casinos. The problem with using bank statements for proving gambling losses is that there was no indication the cash withdrawn was actually used for gambling."
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
IRS Publication 529 goes into this. As with many other expenses contemporaneous records are the gold standard they want.

Note that the gambling loss deduction isn't handled like your average business expense. It doesn't come off your winnings off the top (like a Schedule C businenss). You declare your WINNINGS as income and your LOSSES as a deduction on Schedule A. The IRS doesn't really handle individuals gambling as if they were a business.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
I don't know how much the court decisions have changed since when I looked into this about a decade ago, but the diary approach is basically whatever the IRS says it is.

We had a high net worth client who liked to gamble. She would go to Vegas or the Indian Casinos regularly. In the year of an audit, the IRS questioned her gambling losses netting against her winnings. Without our assistance, she obtained the coin in/out sheets from the casinos (She was a high roller and liked the comps and always used the card.) and turned them over to the IRS. They showed an over-all loss of about $60K. In its infinite mercy, the service accepted the coins out and in as the record. That record cost the client over $100,000 dollars.

How can this be? Statistics. Over the year, there were a ton of coins in and a ton of coins out of the slots she played. Now, overall, she lost a lot. But, on the front page of the return, there was hundreds of thousands of dollars in income that was not reported. In preparing the returns, only the W-2G's were listed as income. Because of the way losses are calculated and reduced from the income (On Schedule A) this huge increase income had all kinds of ramifications and limitations to other deductions and ratable things like passive losses and the amount one can put in retirement, the taxpayer was hit hard and we went to appeals and I was tasked with preparing a tax court case in the event appeals did not go well.

That's where we get to the diary.

The "guidelines" (The tax court enforced.) wanted EVERY WAGER documented. That would mean a diary of every pull of the handle and every placing of the bet and the result. You would think you could do it in sessions.

Something like:
Entry #1 April 1 left room with $100 at 9am and came back at noon with $10. Stupidhead was with me and I spent no money on anything else but the slots. (And so on and so forth.)

No, that is not good enough in most fact situations. EVERY pull, EVERY wager. A reasonable person would say entry #1 would result in no income and $90 gambling loss. The IRS (Statistically speaking, not an actual example, they would go by coins in.), if there was a 97% return might say you MADE about $2,900. [100 times .97 repeated until about 10 is left and then add up the amounts.] Sure, you can deduct it on schedule A. It's just that other deductions may be limited by the $2,900 on the front page.
 

davew128

Senior Member
OP should be grateful that (s)he isn't in Massachusetts or at least one other state I know of that doesn't allow gambling losses on the state income tax return.
 

needtaxhelp

Junior Member
So here is what I am thinking are my options.

1. Get compliant with the IRS. I am going claim all wins as losses as its the truth.
2. If and when I get audited I assume I will have to retain a tax attorney to argue my case. I have zero assets, no savings, etc. I hope the IRS can put 2 and 2 together.

Does this sound about right?
 
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