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court failed to mail me hearing summary.

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quincy

Senior Member
Yes you are very clear. I appreciate the time you've spent thinking about this, but I respectfully disagree. Please reread the last the sentence in the order to show cause. It means that I have to file my opposition motion by that time. The court has no idea that I've not gotten the summary of the hearing with the due dates.
Obviously I am not being very clear (and thank you for editing your prior post - this one is nicer). ;)

I have reread the last sentence in the order to show cause and it says that you need to provide to the court a reason why the other party's motion should not be granted for being unopposed. The judge does not care at this point what your reasons are for opposing the motion. The judge wants to know why you failed to meet the deadline for opposing the motion.

I suggest you contact the court today and inform the court that you have not received the summary from the court. Then I recommend you respond to the show cause before THAT deadline.

Or you can sit down with an attorney in your area, which is never a bad idea when you are confused about a legal matter that is important to you. The attorney can assist you in responding to the court in an appropriate way so that you do not lose your action solely based on a procedural error.

Good luck to you, Johnathan.
 


FlyingRon

Senior Member
I agree with Quincy. It's clear. The judge is giving you an opportunity to explain why you didn't respond to the motion in a timely fashion. If you do not provide a valid reason for failing to respond, he's going to approve the motion as unopposed. Just filing your opposition now isn't going to cut it. It would appear (other than if you can SHOW CAUSE) that it is not timely. Frankly, he could have the moment your response was due and was not filed grant the motion as unopposed. He's giving you more leeway as a pro per litigant that he's obliged to do. Don't annoy him further. Follow the procedure.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I agree with Quincy. It's clear. The judge is giving you an opportunity to explain why you didn't respond to the motion in a timely fashion. If you do not provide a valid reason for failing to respond, he's going to approve the motion as unopposed. Just filing your opposition now isn't going to cut it. It would appear (other than if you can SHOW CAUSE) that it is not timely. Frankly, he could have the moment your response was due and was not filed grant the motion as unopposed. He's giving you more leeway as a pro per litigant that he's obliged to do. Don't annoy him further. Follow the procedure.
I agree with you and Quincy, however I don't think that it would do any harm to ALSO include his motion in opposition along WITH his response to the show cause.
 

johnathan1

Junior Member
Thanks so much for the feedback PaulMass, LdiJ, FlyingRon, and quincy.

New intel: I called the court to explain that I never got what they now explained is a missing minute order. They said I need to file a paper notifying the court that I never got something called a minute order that was allegedly sent out. Our mail carrier might be on drugs for all I know, so I am not that shocked.

Question 1. Should I entitle this "Notice of failure to receive minute order" or is there a better title?

PaulMass, the content of the minute order I am missing is likely discernible (but not positive) from the ORDER TO SHOW CAUSE. That isn't the point. The issue is can I use the fact that they messed up to get more time and if so how do I do it. Trust me if I got the minute order with the date I would have put it in my calendar and not have missed it. I am very busy and rely on people. In this case the judge's minute order to be mailed, which is was not at least successfully.

LdiJ, FlyingRon, and quincy, this is interesting. The plain meaning (to me) of the order seemed opposite of what all of you guys think. I could call the court and ask them which meaning of the order is correct. Is that a good idea? Regardless, I googled the phrase and came to http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Show+Cause+Order . Seems these can come from the parties and not just the courts? If so why is it called an order? I have to assume you guys are largely correct but I am not sure if totally. My new best guess is that not only do I need to file my opposition, but, in the opposition I need to have a section entitled, "SHOWING FOR WHY THIS MOTION SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EVEN THOUGH IT IS BEING FILED AFTER FEB. X.". Is that the title the section should have? Perhaps there is a better title? Should it be filed separately? On the same date?

So right now I am submitting a notice that I never got the minute order even thought I told them this over the phone. If anyone has any feedback about how to bundle that Notice with one or more of the following please chime in:

1. Notice of failure to receive minute order.
2. A possible motion for another extension of time due to not getting the minute order. I don't know how to count days and the dates were not discussed in the hearing anyway. All that I needed to know is that I was to get a document summarizing what we needed to know at some point, and I didn't, so I assumed I had more time since I originally requested more time.
3. A SHOWING OF CAUSE (is that the real title I should use) that I was late due to not getting the minute order which has apparently the due date.
4a. My motion to oppose their motion to dismiss on the merits (which is now past due).
4b. Instead of 4a, my motion to opposite their motion to dismiss on the grounds that the issue is now moot since the case will be dismissed under 41(a)(i). (See 5.)
5. My own motion to file a VOLUNTARY DISMISSAL WITHOUT PREJUDICE UNDER RULE 41(a)(i). The motivation here is that there is to minimize res judicata against me. Once I have enough money (there are two banks and a mini mart I guess I could rob, to hire an attorney I can have the case properly handled. POST PROOF EDIT: JUST KIDDING I AM NOT ACTUALLY PLANNING ON ROBBING BANKS TO HIRE ATTORNEY).
6. Declaration that I never got the minute order.
7. Draft order to dismiss the case under 41(a)(i).

I mean procedurally I wish I had an idea of what to entitle the various documents and how they should be packaged and submitted.

Unedited brainstorming: I personally think it is reasonable to get more time since I never got the minute order. The court messed up and it is a reasonable thing to do IMO. Basically you need an attorney to know how to count days since I don't know from which date or whatever and I relied upon getting the minute order since it was clear I could sit back and wait till it arrived. But if the courts want to play hardball as seems likely based on the replies here they are on the attack against pro ses it is definitely a good strategy to hurt pro ses by arguing that nothing needs to be mailed by courts and it was my obligation to get a pacer account. But my take is that I didn't get the minute order as was promised.

Any more kibitzing about my situation certainly would be most appreciated.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I agree with you and Quincy, however I don't think that it would do any harm to ALSO include his motion in opposition along WITH his response to the show cause.
Johnathan, you can include with the order to show cause a request (a motion) of the court to extend the time for filing your response (your opposition) to the other party's motion, along with a request to hold off on any decision on the other party's motion until the court rules on the time extension.

You need to meet the show cause deadline. This is important.

You seem to indicate in your posts that you are not prepared to file your opposition to the other party's motion at this time.

It is up to you, as a pro per, to know the rules of civil procedure (the time limits for filing). The judge is being kind in not holding you strictly to the rules.

Look at DC's Rules of Civil Procedure - I will provide a link when I have the chance or you can see if you can find them through a search. And look for samples online for the proper format or sit down with an attorney in your area for help.
 
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Ohiogal

Queen Bee
OP, you really need to know the rules of procedure and laws and such if you are going to continue pro se. You cannot use the excuse you are not a lawyer if you are going to be representing yourself.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Here is a link to Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, but courts in DC also have their own rules that you need to be aware of and adhere to: https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp

Johnathan, I think you need to sit down with an attorney in your area because I do not see from your posts that you are going to be able to address the show cause without personal assistance.

Good luck.
 
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johnathan1

Junior Member
Here is a link to DC's Rules of Civil Procedure, but different courts in DC can also have their own rules that you need to be aware of and adhere to: https://www.pfiserves.com/rules/washington_dc.htm

Johnathan, I think you need to sit down with an attorney in your area because I do not see from your posts that you are going to be able to address the show cause without personal assistance.

Good luck.
Thanks quincy but I am not sure the relevance of these rules. Which rules are relevant or useful to me? In no way are they rules binding upon the court, which has messed up here in failing to send me their order. The are binding upon the parties. These rules seem useful for anything but responses to a judge. They are useful if I need to file a new thing. The closest rule that might apply seems to be this:

LCrR 49 CASES ASSIGNED TO CASE MANAGEMENT/ELECTRONIC CASE
FILING (CM/ECF) SYTEM)
(g) INCORRECT FILINGS AND TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES.
(3) The inability to complete an electronic filing because of technical problems may
constitute “cause” for an order enlarging time or “excusable neglect” for the
failure to act within the specified time, within the meaning of Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 45(b)(1). A filer encountering technical problems with a
CM/ECF filing shall immediately notify the Clerk’s Office of the problem either
by email or by telephone, followed promptly by written confirmation. This Rule
does not provide authority to extend statutory and jurisdictional time limits.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Thanks quincy but I am not sure the relevance of these rules. Which rules are relevant or useful to me? In no way are they rules binding upon the court, which has messed up here in failing to send me their order. The are binding upon the parties. These rules seem useful for anything but responses to a judge. They are useful if I need to file a new thing. The closest rule that might apply seems to be this:

LCrR 49 CASES ASSIGNED TO CASE MANAGEMENT/ELECTRONIC CASE
FILING (CM/ECF) SYTEM)
(g) INCORRECT FILINGS AND TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES.
(3) The inability to complete an electronic filing because of technical problems may
constitute “cause” for an order enlarging time or “excusable neglect” for the
failure to act within the specified time, within the meaning of Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 45(b)(1). A filer encountering technical problems with a
CM/ECF filing shall immediately notify the Clerk’s Office of the problem either
by email or by telephone, followed promptly by written confirmation. This Rule
does not provide authority to extend statutory and jurisdictional time limits.
If you don't understand why the Rules of Civil Procedure are important to you, then you MUST seek the advice of an attorney.
 

quincy

Senior Member
Thanks quincy but I am not sure the relevance of these rules. Which rules are relevant or useful to me? In no way are they rules binding upon the court, which has messed up here in failing to send me their order. The are binding upon the parties. These rules seem useful for anything but responses to a judge. They are useful if I need to file a new thing. The closest rule that might apply seems to be this:

LCrR 49 CASES ASSIGNED TO CASE MANAGEMENT/ELECTRONIC CASE
FILING (CM/ECF) SYTEM)
(g) INCORRECT FILINGS AND TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES.
(3) The inability to complete an electronic filing because of technical problems may
constitute “cause” for an order enlarging time or “excusable neglect” for the
failure to act within the specified time, within the meaning of Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 45(b)(1). A filer encountering technical problems with a
CM/ECF filing shall immediately notify the Clerk’s Office of the problem either
by email or by telephone, followed promptly by written confirmation. This Rule
does not provide authority to extend statutory and jurisdictional time limits.
The Rules of Civil Procedure apply to everyone. Yes, they are relevant.

But you have made no mention of technical problems in filing so the particular Rule you cited is not useful to you.

I agree with Zigner that, if you do not understand how the Rules of Civil Procedure apply, or what to look for, you are in desperate need of help from an attorney in your area, who can sit down with you to get your case back on track.

If you do not find personal legal assistance soon, I fear you will lose whatever legal action it is you are pursuing or defending against - not necessarily on the merits of the case but because you have missed important deadlines and have fumbled with the procedural rules. It will get to the point (if it hasn't already) where even the most generous of judges (and they are not known for being especially generous to pro se's in DC) will have no option but to find for the other party.

A lot of good luck to you, Johnathan.
 

johnathan1

Junior Member
Overall, I appreciate the input from everyone.

To summarize, for anyone from google wondering looking for the answer to the stated question, so far no posts strongly answered my main question, which was if the court's failure to send me their order is sufficient grounds for an extension of time, or what case law might be on point. The closest answer was a perhaps and that I would need to sit down with an attorney instead of requesting for any help online since I don't realize the importance of the various rules that must be followed.

I will edit this post if this changes or I find more info.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
I am glad you appreciate the input from everyone. We appreciate your appreciation.

state: federal court, washington, dc.
To save time I am just going to focus on the key issue, which isn't too case specific ... Does the fact that I never got it allow me extra time?
Maybe. The judge could grant an extension or the judge might not grant an extension. Simply saying you didn't get it may not be enough to get you an extension.

Should I file for a motion to expand the time to respond?
You could. This was answered earlier.

On what basis?
This was answered earlier.

Is there any case I can cite?
I don't know offhand.

Or do I just have to meet the deadline of the complaint that I missed the deadline?
You have to address the Order to Show Cause before the deadline or the judge will not only consider the other party's motion unopposed, you also subject yourself to the possibility of sanctions.

p.s. I already know I am a moron, so please no need to submit useless ad hominum attacks against me; if you comment isn't useful, say nothing please.
Okay.


edit to add: I see you edited your last post, Johnathan. We cannot help you with the Show Cause. You need to either familiarize yourself with the rules that apply and learn a lot about the law or sit down with an attorney in your area who can work with you to get your case back on track. A forum can't do that for you, no matter how many questions you ask or how many answers we provide. We do not have all of the facts of your case to help you in the way you need to be helped. As a note, I am changing the previous link I gave you to the Federal Rules. The other link did not direct properly.
 
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johnathan1

Junior Member
We cannot help you with the Show Cause.
It isn't that difficult. The Court is warning me that I'd better show cause for missing a due date. The fact that the court didn't mail it and I relied upon them sending it and that there was ambiguity is probably a just and sufficient showing of cause to miss the deadline. An oath by me under penalty of perjury that I never got it in the mail will also help. A sentence that I would have put it in my calendar had I gotten the notice as was promised will help. Done. I'd like to cite a case with a similar fact pattern but no way would anyone here offer that since it crosses some sort of line (I am guessing). I'd guess the standard is what a reasonable attorney would have done. Actually it should be a little lower since I am pro se, but in real life it is actually higher since the upper courts abhor all pro ses, case law be damned.

If you and others want to disagree and say I need to talk to an attorney regardless well, duh, obviously, but then if that were EVEN REMOTELY possible I wouldn't be posting here now, would I? And neither would anyone else for that matter. It is exactly that sort of semi-unvaluable responses a lot of bogus commentators seemt o make on this forum (from what I saw prior to posting) causing me to include that moron disclaimer/sentence. I think your comments have been really top notch useful and I thank you quicny. But be easy on saying your advice is to avoid using this forum for it's implied purpose since at the end of the day it makes little sense IMHO.
 
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quincy

Senior Member
It isn't that difficult. The Court is warning me that I'd better show cause for missing a due date. The fact that the court didn't mail it and I relied upon them sending it and that there was ambiguity is probably a just and sufficient showing of cause to miss the deadline. An oath by me under penalty of perjury that I never got it in the mail will also help. A sentence that I would have put it in my calendar had I gotten the notice as was promised will help. Done. I'd like to cite a case with a similar fact pattern but no way would anyone here offer that since it crosses some sort of line (I am guessing).
I hope that what you have is all that it takes and that the judge accepts your reason for missing the deadline as an excusable failure. If the court has proof it was mailed, however, your explanation might be questioned (and PLEASE do not use the "our mail carrier may be on drugs" comment if it is questioned ;)).

There is no line that is crossed when a forum member offers up pertinent case law, by the way. I just have nothing for you and apparently no one else does either. Sorry.

If you and others want to disagree and say I need to talk to an attorney regardless well, duh, obviously, but then if that were EVEN REMOTELY possible I wouldn't be posting here now, would I? And neither would anyone else for that matter.
I understand that the reason most people seek out advice on a forum is because it is affordable and hiring an attorney often isn't. But those who offer advice on forums are either laypeople who cannot assist with the drafting of legal documents - otherwise they would be practicing law without a license and that is a no no - or those who offer advice on forums are attorneys who are limited by ethical codes and professional rules in what they can and can't offer someone who is in a jurisdiction where they are not licensed to practice.

It is exactly that sort of semi-unvaluable responses a lot of bogus commentators seemt o make on this forum (from what I saw prior to posting) causing me to include that moron disclaimer/sentence. I think your comments have been really top notch useful and I thank you quicny. But be easy on saying your advice is to avoid using this forum for it's implied purpose since at the end of the day it makes little sense IMHO.
I don't think there are many "bogus commentators." The forum members on this site tend to be knowledgeable, skilled and often very well-educated volunteers who try to assist posters by teaching them a bit about the law based on their own education, their research and/or their own relevant personal experiences with it. They will often direct posters to legal resources in the posters' own area. And most of us try our best to help a poster leave the forum a little bit more informed about their legal situation than they were when they arrived.

But visitors to legal forums sometimes expect more of a forum than a forum can reasonably deliver. And that is unfortunate.

Thank you for the nice words, johnathan. They are always appreciated.
 
The forum members on this site tend to be knowledgeable, skilled and often very well-educated volunteers who try to assist posters by teaching them a bit about the law based on their own education, their research and/or their own relevant personal experiences with it. They will often direct posters to legal resources in the posters' own area. And most of us try our best to help a poster leave the forum a little bit more informed about their legal situation than they were when they arrived. But visitors to legal forums sometimes expect more of a forum than a forum can reasonably deliver. And that is unfortunate.
I think that ALL of this response was REALLY well said...
 

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