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Crrrraaaapp!!!!
- Thread starter anabanana
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Ah, yes, it's been a while ...
Good to see you're still in your usual form Guru.
If you can answer my actual question, tho, I'd be delighted to hear your input, in particular, because I think I screwed up bad enough that I'm going to end up in the outhouse, or at least the doghouse.
The main issue is that I appear to have missed the deadline 30 days after the creditors meeting for objecting to exemptions. Is that ROCK SOLID? I'm not even sure if I need to object to anything, because so much of this bankruptcy was just plain lies to begin with.
I'm doing this pro se as a creditor, so I'm sort of adrift, and I got caught up in this proof of claim crap, and that objection thing went right over my air head.... been focused on the Nov. 19 deadline. Have I really blown it?
Good to see you're still in your usual form Guru.
If you can answer my actual question, tho, I'd be delighted to hear your input, in particular, because I think I screwed up bad enough that I'm going to end up in the outhouse, or at least the doghouse.
The main issue is that I appear to have missed the deadline 30 days after the creditors meeting for objecting to exemptions. Is that ROCK SOLID? I'm not even sure if I need to object to anything, because so much of this bankruptcy was just plain lies to begin with.
I'm doing this pro se as a creditor, so I'm sort of adrift, and I got caught up in this proof of claim crap, and that objection thing went right over my air head.... been focused on the Nov. 19 deadline. Have I really blown it?
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You mean object?
Hi JeTX--
I'm hoping I can still OBJECT to exemptions, if in fact I need to. My thought was that since this whole filing is so riddled with fraud and misrepresentations, that maybe I won't need to parse out the specific objections, but if this objection deadline sets the end point for any opportun ity I had to contest the bankruptcy at all, then I'm probably screwed.... I just can't find any direction on whether or not that's the case and whether or not I can still try to shoot holes in this thing with the rest of my material and proofs.
Hi JeTX--
I'm hoping I can still OBJECT to exemptions, if in fact I need to. My thought was that since this whole filing is so riddled with fraud and misrepresentations, that maybe I won't need to parse out the specific objections, but if this objection deadline sets the end point for any opportun ity I had to contest the bankruptcy at all, then I'm probably screwed.... I just can't find any direction on whether or not that's the case and whether or not I can still try to shoot holes in this thing with the rest of my material and proofs.
Slow on the uptake, here...
I'm perhaps a wee bit dense, but I'm not following ...
I'll try to reach someone in the trustee's office and see if I can get an answer about the deadline, but since I'm hoping to show that this whole filing is phoney baloney, maybe that particular objection deadline won't be so relevant? maybe? hopefully...?
I'm perhaps a wee bit dense, but I'm not following ...
I'll try to reach someone in the trustee's office and see if I can get an answer about the deadline, but since I'm hoping to show that this whole filing is phoney baloney, maybe that particular objection deadline won't be so relevant? maybe? hopefully...?
I recently went through the same thing. I had not been contacted by the court as to the filing of the bankruptcy because...even though I was listed as an unsecure creditor, no address was given. I heard about it after the 341 meeting. I went ahead and filled out a Proof of Claim form & filed it with the court. I also provided the court with my address. I was able to show that I was indeed a secured creditor as I included a copy of the divorce papers stating I was allowed to file "lien" on the "property" and also attached a copy of such "lien".
I then went to work listing every "mistake" or false filing of the bankruptcy & made 3 copies, one for the debtor's attorney, one for the trustee & one for myself. I filed a motion for a hearing & showed up with the documents & gave the copies to all involved. The trustee also had a hearing that day & she requested a continuance in order for the debtor to file corrected schedules within a 20 day period.
You have to stay on it & ask questions to anyone & everyone you can, it helps. I had to file mutiple continuances but by the time I was ready to actually state "my case" against the debtor, we ended up back in square one. (Again, I was not notified of this until the last hearing I has scheduled.)
Long story short, I was called & went up & the debtor's attorney met me at the stand. He asked to speak to me & the judge allowed the time out. The attorney then offered to remove me & 2 others that I had been fighting for from the bankruptcy case & said it had been agreed upon by the trustee (who I had talked to in lenght before this meeting), that way I could proceed to collect my debt directly from the property I had attached the lien to & not have to go through the bankruptcy court. We stated the agreement before the judge (I let the attorney do all the talking since he was so much better at it than I would have been, lol) and I only added "little" details as I saw them, to be sure everyone understood what I understood the offer to be. The judge grinned & asked if I agreed, which I again stated what I was agreeing to & now all I am waiting for is the paperwork.
If you know that what you are staing is true, go for it, it could be in your favor. Search every detail of the Chapter filing you are dealing with & be prepared to state your case as honestly as you can.
I then went to work listing every "mistake" or false filing of the bankruptcy & made 3 copies, one for the debtor's attorney, one for the trustee & one for myself. I filed a motion for a hearing & showed up with the documents & gave the copies to all involved. The trustee also had a hearing that day & she requested a continuance in order for the debtor to file corrected schedules within a 20 day period.
You have to stay on it & ask questions to anyone & everyone you can, it helps. I had to file mutiple continuances but by the time I was ready to actually state "my case" against the debtor, we ended up back in square one. (Again, I was not notified of this until the last hearing I has scheduled.)
Long story short, I was called & went up & the debtor's attorney met me at the stand. He asked to speak to me & the judge allowed the time out. The attorney then offered to remove me & 2 others that I had been fighting for from the bankruptcy case & said it had been agreed upon by the trustee (who I had talked to in lenght before this meeting), that way I could proceed to collect my debt directly from the property I had attached the lien to & not have to go through the bankruptcy court. We stated the agreement before the judge (I let the attorney do all the talking since he was so much better at it than I would have been, lol) and I only added "little" details as I saw them, to be sure everyone understood what I understood the offer to be. The judge grinned & asked if I agreed, which I again stated what I was agreeing to & now all I am waiting for is the paperwork.
If you know that what you are staing is true, go for it, it could be in your favor. Search every detail of the Chapter filing you are dealing with & be prepared to state your case as honestly as you can.
Just baffling...
Well, I talked to a lawyer this morning and it really looks like the bankruptcy system is set up to thwart justice and harm the creditor, unless they can afford their own attorney. I can't, and like you, dcw888, I don't mind doing the legwork, but I've never seen a system so deliberately slanted against the injured or innocent parties. Pretty scary, downright unAmerican, even ...
So that's my moaning. Next question, if anyone can help...
The 341 was held Aug. 21, and I asked about a number of falsehoods in the filing, which the trustee found very interesting. The trustee told me that I could request a meeting for additional questioning of the debtor, since there wasn't much time for it at that meeting. But the case progress docket shows that the meeting was held and "concluded" on Oct. 6, at which time the trustee filed his praecipe with "unfavorable recommendation."
Does this mean I can no longer get another hearing for additional questions? Why would the docket not reflect the date the actual meeting was held, and show another date?
And finally, does ANYONE know how I can get a copy of the audiotape of that hearing? The clerk's office doesn't seem to know, the trustee doesn't know, no one seems to have a clue.
ae
Well, I talked to a lawyer this morning and it really looks like the bankruptcy system is set up to thwart justice and harm the creditor, unless they can afford their own attorney. I can't, and like you, dcw888, I don't mind doing the legwork, but I've never seen a system so deliberately slanted against the injured or innocent parties. Pretty scary, downright unAmerican, even ...
So that's my moaning. Next question, if anyone can help...
The 341 was held Aug. 21, and I asked about a number of falsehoods in the filing, which the trustee found very interesting. The trustee told me that I could request a meeting for additional questioning of the debtor, since there wasn't much time for it at that meeting. But the case progress docket shows that the meeting was held and "concluded" on Oct. 6, at which time the trustee filed his praecipe with "unfavorable recommendation."
Does this mean I can no longer get another hearing for additional questions? Why would the docket not reflect the date the actual meeting was held, and show another date?
And finally, does ANYONE know how I can get a copy of the audiotape of that hearing? The clerk's office doesn't seem to know, the trustee doesn't know, no one seems to have a clue.
ae
I went to the Bankruptcy Courthouse & all filings, etc. are on computer. I was able to look up any bankruptcy by name or #. I read each piece of paper filed & if I needed a copy of such, for a small fee, was able to get a copy. There were at least 4 computers there for this reason & most times no one using them. No one would rush you & you can take the time you need to read the information, and even though the clerks could not give lgal advice, they were very helpful.
I could take these home & from a lot of this could file my motions to be heard, or continuanes based on what had happened, or in the least, get online to sites such as this to ask my multiple of questions. At most hearings after the 341 meeting, the debtor I was dealing with (Ex) didn't show up in court, but his attorney did.
Copies of the schedules filed helped me to sit and comb over each detail & make notes as to what was left out/ falsely filed. Then I typed up information dealing with each left out/ falsely filed section, made copies & like I said, gave a copy to both the trustee & Ex's attorney. It wasn't enough, in my case, to just talk to the trustee about his misfilings, (I did not want to sound like a disgruntaled ex-wife), but by making notes, listing questions (like why is he showing x-amount of $ for auto insurance/maintaince if he is not showing any vehicles to claim?, is it because he failed to list the yr/make/model/color of truck, van/car & if possible include proof of such vehicle such as a picture, etc. of such.
For instance, under the section of property where guns are to be listed, my Ex listed none. I had description of 9 along with serial # & values. (this may not sound like much alone, but these 9 guns had values totaling over $15,000.00 that he failed to list) Granted he could argue hat he no longer had these, but then he would have had to list what he had done with these & what value he had received for them, which he had not. In either case, because I followed up with this in writing, it was/IS much harder to be ignored or forgotten & makes it much easier for the trustee to follow up & for his attorney NOT to ignore or comb over, esp. when both KNOW you are on top of this & going to possibly show up. In my case, I had to prove or back up my claim that I was not an unsecured claim but a SECURED CLAIM & I wasn't going to go away w/o being heard. If I couldn't, I would at least raise enough doubt to his filings that possibly could get his bankruptcy thrown out & then free me up to pursue other avenues to collect my lien. I also was trying to show that he had so much more that he failed to list that could at least be taken & sold to satisfy the creditors.
I searched the Web until I found a site that actually listed some of the rulings that the local bankruptcy judges had made. This alone helped me as I could see where others had proved their like claims & it listed section/rule of bankruptcy codes. I then searched until I found a site that listed the bankruptcy code in full, looked up the section/rule & made notes as to why this would/could apply to me. When I talked to the trustee, I often found that even though she stressed she could/would not give me advise, and did not represent me or my interests but the trust, IF I listened, she would say something I knew was important or gave me a lead. This was all very new to me & I guess she often thought I knew much more than I actually did. I would then stop her & ask her to repeat what she had just said. I wrote down so many notes from just conversations with her and clerks and anyone who would carry on a conversation dealing with my issues or like issues.
Yes, I agree that everyone needs an attorney, it is so much easier to let someone who knows the law & how to use it to do this for me, but I just did not have the funds, but that did not mean it wasn't worth it to me to at least try & state my case.
I stronly suggest you follow up every thing in writing. Once written, it just doesn't go away.
I could take these home & from a lot of this could file my motions to be heard, or continuanes based on what had happened, or in the least, get online to sites such as this to ask my multiple of questions. At most hearings after the 341 meeting, the debtor I was dealing with (Ex) didn't show up in court, but his attorney did.
Copies of the schedules filed helped me to sit and comb over each detail & make notes as to what was left out/ falsely filed. Then I typed up information dealing with each left out/ falsely filed section, made copies & like I said, gave a copy to both the trustee & Ex's attorney. It wasn't enough, in my case, to just talk to the trustee about his misfilings, (I did not want to sound like a disgruntaled ex-wife), but by making notes, listing questions (like why is he showing x-amount of $ for auto insurance/maintaince if he is not showing any vehicles to claim?, is it because he failed to list the yr/make/model/color of truck, van/car & if possible include proof of such vehicle such as a picture, etc. of such.
For instance, under the section of property where guns are to be listed, my Ex listed none. I had description of 9 along with serial # & values. (this may not sound like much alone, but these 9 guns had values totaling over $15,000.00 that he failed to list) Granted he could argue hat he no longer had these, but then he would have had to list what he had done with these & what value he had received for them, which he had not. In either case, because I followed up with this in writing, it was/IS much harder to be ignored or forgotten & makes it much easier for the trustee to follow up & for his attorney NOT to ignore or comb over, esp. when both KNOW you are on top of this & going to possibly show up. In my case, I had to prove or back up my claim that I was not an unsecured claim but a SECURED CLAIM & I wasn't going to go away w/o being heard. If I couldn't, I would at least raise enough doubt to his filings that possibly could get his bankruptcy thrown out & then free me up to pursue other avenues to collect my lien. I also was trying to show that he had so much more that he failed to list that could at least be taken & sold to satisfy the creditors.
I searched the Web until I found a site that actually listed some of the rulings that the local bankruptcy judges had made. This alone helped me as I could see where others had proved their like claims & it listed section/rule of bankruptcy codes. I then searched until I found a site that listed the bankruptcy code in full, looked up the section/rule & made notes as to why this would/could apply to me. When I talked to the trustee, I often found that even though she stressed she could/would not give me advise, and did not represent me or my interests but the trust, IF I listened, she would say something I knew was important or gave me a lead. This was all very new to me & I guess she often thought I knew much more than I actually did. I would then stop her & ask her to repeat what she had just said. I wrote down so many notes from just conversations with her and clerks and anyone who would carry on a conversation dealing with my issues or like issues.
Yes, I agree that everyone needs an attorney, it is so much easier to let someone who knows the law & how to use it to do this for me, but I just did not have the funds, but that did not mean it wasn't worth it to me to at least try & state my case.
I stronly suggest you follow up every thing in writing. Once written, it just doesn't go away.
Great!
Wow! Your situation is VERY like my own (right down to the unlisted guns) except I don't really have any of the records or papaerwork that would help me prove the omission and misrepresentations.
Also, Florida is a long, skinny state, and the bankruptcy court is about three hours north of here. It had occured to me to do precisely as you suggested with poking through the various cases, but I can't afford to take a day off to just go scrum around in the filings and see what I find. I need to be a little better prepared to look for what will help me most -- even though I don't really know what that is, specifically. I was going to see if I could get chummy with someone at the legal document recovery service up there and see if they could identify a bankruptcy or two that seems to have been around for a while, and then look at that.
>>>>In my case, I had to prove or back up my claim that I was not an unsecured claim but a SECURED CLAIM & I wasn't going to go away w/o being heard. If I couldn't, I would at least raise enough doubt to his filings that possibly could get his bankruptcy thrown out & then free me up to pursue other avenues to collect my lien.<<<<<
I had begun to pursue those "other avenues," and that's why my ex filed the bankruptcy. Very shrewd. Seems like a pretty airtight defense. I can't get any discovery in the other suit because the suit was stayed by the bankruptcy, and the information I need to I need to get this BK thrown out was what I was requesting in the discovery for the other suit.
I do know how to write letters, however, so I will certainly take your advice and do that. The trustee(s) here, however, have such a monstrous caseload, no one "handles" any particular case. It's one trustee one hearing, another the next time. No one ever becomes familiar with the particulars of the case, and I guarantee they don't review everything in every case that gets piled onto their desk when they rotate around for each new action or whatever. It's just pitiful. Almost set up to PREVENT any informed or logical handling of the cases.
Could you share where that website was with the specific rulings? I know we're not in the same place, but it might give me a clue as to where to find a similar such site for the Middle Florida District.
It's surprising how similar our cases seem to be. Few creditors bother with these boards, and I've never come across another who was doing their own legal work (or who was dealing with a bankrupt ex!), so I really appreciate your input. Thanks!
ae
Wow! Your situation is VERY like my own (right down to the unlisted guns) except I don't really have any of the records or papaerwork that would help me prove the omission and misrepresentations.
Also, Florida is a long, skinny state, and the bankruptcy court is about three hours north of here. It had occured to me to do precisely as you suggested with poking through the various cases, but I can't afford to take a day off to just go scrum around in the filings and see what I find. I need to be a little better prepared to look for what will help me most -- even though I don't really know what that is, specifically. I was going to see if I could get chummy with someone at the legal document recovery service up there and see if they could identify a bankruptcy or two that seems to have been around for a while, and then look at that.
>>>>In my case, I had to prove or back up my claim that I was not an unsecured claim but a SECURED CLAIM & I wasn't going to go away w/o being heard. If I couldn't, I would at least raise enough doubt to his filings that possibly could get his bankruptcy thrown out & then free me up to pursue other avenues to collect my lien.<<<<<
I had begun to pursue those "other avenues," and that's why my ex filed the bankruptcy. Very shrewd. Seems like a pretty airtight defense. I can't get any discovery in the other suit because the suit was stayed by the bankruptcy, and the information I need to I need to get this BK thrown out was what I was requesting in the discovery for the other suit.
I do know how to write letters, however, so I will certainly take your advice and do that. The trustee(s) here, however, have such a monstrous caseload, no one "handles" any particular case. It's one trustee one hearing, another the next time. No one ever becomes familiar with the particulars of the case, and I guarantee they don't review everything in every case that gets piled onto their desk when they rotate around for each new action or whatever. It's just pitiful. Almost set up to PREVENT any informed or logical handling of the cases.
Could you share where that website was with the specific rulings? I know we're not in the same place, but it might give me a clue as to where to find a similar such site for the Middle Florida District.
It's surprising how similar our cases seem to be. Few creditors bother with these boards, and I've never come across another who was doing their own legal work (or who was dealing with a bankrupt ex!), so I really appreciate your input. Thanks!
ae
limits on relief of stay?
Lady--
Are there limitations on when that can be done? I understand that what's likely to happen without a relief of stay is that the suit would essentially end up litigated WITHIN the bankruptcy proceeding, and go forward much as it would have normally, except with probably much less to gain. Is that correct?
ae
Lady--
Are there limitations on when that can be done? I understand that what's likely to happen without a relief of stay is that the suit would essentially end up litigated WITHIN the bankruptcy proceeding, and go forward much as it would have normally, except with probably much less to gain. Is that correct?
ae
If the lawsuit is after him for money/assets, then its proceedings cannot move forward without a Relief from stay. You should be able to file that motion at any time before discharge.
As for how the other case would be litigated within bankruptcy, I'm not sure, but I don't think that can happen.
As for how the other case would be litigated within bankruptcy, I'm not sure, but I don't think that can happen.
C
christyk
Guest
Hello! I just wanted to give you some comfort in knowing that sometimes even when you have a "good" attorney and pay them very well, that it doesn't always help you when you are a creditor trying to get a bankruptcy thrown out. I agree with you on how lopsided the entire bankruptcy system is. I am a creditor as well and between my attorney, the judge, their attorney and the trustee I can not tell you how many times they have failed to file something that they should have filed or not done something they should have done and the only person that it has ended up hurting is me!!!!! I have seriously considered "firing" my attorney because I know the case history much better than they ever will and I am only dealing with one case not many. I can research and find almost all of the information that I need, but I have just been scared to do it on my own. I don't know if you have the pacer website that you can access from your home in your state, but you can pull up information on individual bankruptcy cases such as what the status is, motions that have been filed, who has filed proof of claim forms against the debtor, and several other interesting items.
Sorry to ramble! If I come up with any additional websites that may be of help to you.....I will share!!!!
Have a great day!
Sorry to ramble! If I come up with any additional websites that may be of help to you.....I will share!!!!
Have a great day!
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