CS/Visitation Agreement

[nagol818]

What is the name of your state?PA
My ex and I are in the process of drawing up a CS and custody/visition agreement. I am working with an attorney for the custody and using Domestic Relations for CS because the results are usually standard anyway and it will saves us money.

A little background:
The ex lives on the west coast and I live in PA. Our ONLY problem is neither of us are willing to move to the other's side of the country so we are at an impasse. As a result, we are trying to legalize our custody/visitation and CS agreement without much help or influence from attorneys and DR. Our custody order will be very basic with lots of room for interpretation. If in the future we have a difficult time coming to agreements on issues, we will return to an attorney for clarification to enter into the order. The CS will be along similar lines of standard orders. I filed with DR on Friday. In order for her to enter our agreement, both parties need to have the agreement written on paper, signed and notorized. She said that each of us could write our information down on our own paper and have it notorized in our locations, as long as the information is consistent with the other's, since us doing it together isn't feasible. I'm reluctant to agree with her on this because they've never dealt with an international agreement before. Does anyone know if this will hold up in court down the road if problems were ever to arise or should we both be present to do this?

Also, the agreement is that he pays me per month $831 in CS and $519 for daycare. Should we separate these amounts in our agreement or put them together for a total of $1350. Or does it not make a difference?

 

[LdiJ]

What is the name of your state?PA
My ex and I are in the process of drawing up a CS and custody/visition agreement. I am working with an attorney for the custody and using Domestic Relations for CS because the results are usually standard anyway and it will saves us money.

A little background:
The ex lives on the west coast and I live in PA. Our ONLY problem is neither of us are willing to move to the other's side of the country so we are at an impasse. As a result, we are trying to legalize our custody/visitation and CS agreement without much help or influence from attorneys and DR. Our custody order will be very basic with lots of room for interpretation. If in the future we have a difficult time coming to agreements on issues, we will return to an attorney for clarification to enter into the order. The CS will be along similar lines of standard orders. I filed with DR on Friday. In order for her to enter our agreement, both parties need to have the agreement written on paper, signed and notorized. She said that each of us could write our information down on our own paper and have it notorized in our locations, as long as the information is consistent with the other's, since us doing it together isn't feasible. I'm reluctant to agree with her on this because they've never dealt with an international agreement before. Does anyone know if this will hold up in court down the road if problems were ever to arise or should we both be present to do this?

Also, the agreement is that he pays me per month $831 in CS and $519 for daycare. Should we separate these amounts in our agreement or put them together for a total of $1350. Or does it not make a difference?

Why is the agreement "international"?
Who is "she"?

Its generally more fair to keep the CS and daycare separate, so that if daycare changes it can be adjusted more easily. However, its more enforceable if you lump them together.

 

[nagol818]

Domestic Relations and the attorney are handling this as an international case because although the ex lives in Oregon and his official place of residency is Oregon and will be until his lease is up July 06, he is working in Vancouver Canada on a 6 month contract for the city of Vancouver and staying at his parent's home. It is up in the air at this point whether or not he will be moving to Vancouver.

The "she" is the person at DR who is entering the CS case.

 

[LdiJ]

Domestic Relations and the attorney are handling this as an international case because although the ex lives in Oregon and his official place of residency is Oregon and will be until his lease is up July 06, he is working in Vancouver Canada on a 6 month contract for the city of Vancouver and staying at his parent's home. It is up in the air at this point whether or not he will be moving to Vancouver.

The "she" is the person at DR who is entering the CS case.

Ok, that was confusing, for a moment I couldn't tell if you were payor or the payee.

Since there is a chance this case could end up being international, it would probably be wise to lump the child support and daycare together. You will need maximum enforceability.

 

[nagol818]

Ok, that was confusing, for a moment I couldn't tell if you were payor or the payee.

Oh, I see what you mean. Thanks for asking for clarification on that point. Yes I am the payee.

Is anyone familiar enough with notorizing that could answer my other question?

 

[Whyte Noise]

What is the name of your state?PA
My ex and I are in the process of drawing up a CS and custody/visition agreement. I am working with an attorney for the custody and using Domestic Relations for CS because the results are usually standard anyway and it will saves us money.

A little background:
The ex lives on the west coast and I live in PA. Our ONLY problem is neither of us are willing to move to the other's side of the country so we are at an impasse. As a result, we are trying to legalize our custody/visitation and CS agreement without much help or influence from attorneys and DR. Our custody order will be very basic with lots of room for interpretation. If in the future we have a difficult time coming to agreements on issues, we will return to an attorney for clarification to enter into the order. The CS will be along similar lines of standard orders. I filed with DR on Friday. In order for her to enter our agreement, both parties need to have the agreement written on paper, signed and notorized. She said that each of us could write our information down on our own paper and have it notorized in our locations, as long as the information is consistent with the other's, since us doing it together isn't feasible. I'm reluctant to agree with her on this because they've never dealt with an international agreement before. Does anyone know if this will hold up in court down the road if problems were ever to arise or should we both be present to do this?

Also, the agreement is that he pays me per month $831 in CS and $519 for daycare. Should we separate these amounts in our agreement or put them together for a total of $1350. Or does it not make a difference?

All notarizing a document does is certify (by the notary) that the person signing the document as "John Doe", a party to the document in question in your case, is in fact, John Doe. That's it. It doesn't change or make any legalities to the document, ONLY verifies that the person signing is who they say they are. So, unless you think your ex is going to try and have "Mark Brown" sign as him (John Doe), there's no reason for it to be done together. The notary will look at his ID to verify who he is before he signs the doument in front of her.

You said, "Our custody order will be very basic with lots of room for interpretation." If you search through this forum you will find many examples of why having an order that's open to interpretation is SOOOOO not a wise choice. Sure, you may get along now but that may not always be the case. Also, an order that has lots of room for that interpretation might be interpreted differently by a judge. You may think it means one thing, your ex thinks it means another, and if there is an issue before the court that's wide open for that interpretation you're risking the court making their own call.

I'd rethink the "open to interpretation" part. Seriously. Much like "reasonable visitation as agreed to by the parties" visitation orders, if it's not clearly spelled out in the order, it can become a case of not being enforceable at all.

 

[stealth2]

It's generally better to hammer out specifics to fall back on, and then be flexible as long as flexibility works.

 

[nagol818]

Well, we are working on the agreement to look something like this:

The parties will have Joint Legal custody of child.
The plaintiff(mother) will have primary physical custody.
The defendant(father) will have partial physical custody.

Until the child is 3 years of age, the defendant will exercise all visitation in PA. The plaintiff cannot prevent him from less than 12 visitations per calender year for agreed upon amount of time by both parties. He is permitted to spend every holiday with her in PA beginning at 2pm during this 3 year period. All visitation before the age of 3 requires 14 day written, email acceptable, notification.

After 3 years of age, the defendant will have visitation in any geographical location of his choice for a period agreed upon by both parties with 30 days written, email acceptable, notice. Starting 2008 the defendant will have every even year Christmas/New Years and 30 days every June, July or August agreed upon by both parties. When school age begins, the 30 days will be contained within child's school schedule. When the defendant comes to exercise his visitation he must spend 24 hours in PA before leaving with the child.

The defendant must visit in PA a minimum of 2 times per calendar year in order to exercise his partial custody rights in any geographical location including PA.

Phone numbers and address be provided to each party for all visits/vacations.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

I thought about adding that he needs to visit the subject of getting our daughter's passport because he's the one requiring her to travel out of the country. Everyone will need a passport to enter Canada by December 31 2007. But in reality, he will have to get her one to exercise his visitation after she is 3 years of age so I decided not to bring it up.

 

[nextwife]

Am I reading this wrong, or is this agreement saying he ONLY gets to spend time with his kid until age 3 if he is with YOU?

Dad's needs their OWN one on one time, without mommy around, so daddy can facilitate the caregiving actions that assist in the bonding process. Diaper changing. Being the first face they see when they wake up in the morning, or from a nap and need conforting. It is IMPORTANT to the parent child bond that daddy has time with he and his childx alone, in which he is the primary caregiver. This should not be put off until a child is almost school age! This needs to start happening while the child is preverbal.

 

[LdiJ]

Anyone have any other suggestions?

I thought about adding that he needs to visit the subject of getting our daughter's passport because he's the one requiring her to travel out of the country. Everyone will need a passport to enter Canada by December 31 2007. But in reality, he will have to get her one to exercise his visitation after she is 3 years of age so I decided not to bring it up.

Its probably wise for the agreement to stipulate that both parties agree that the US (and particularly your state) has jurisdiction of all matters regarding the child.

I agree on the passport issue. Don't lock yourself into agreeing to that until there is some history on the situation. Canada and the US are pretty good about enforcing each other's custody/visitation/child support orders but its still wise to be cautious.

 

[nagol818]

Am I reading this wrong, or is this agreement saying he ONLY gets to spend time with his kid until age 3 if he is with YOU?

Dad's needs their OWN one on one time, without mommy around, so daddy can facilitate the caregiving actions that assist in the bonding process. Diaper changing. Being the first face they see when they wake up in the morning, or from a nap and need conforting. It is IMPORTANT to the parent child bond that daddy has time with he and his childx alone, in which he is the primary caregiver. This should not be put off until a child is almost school age! This needs to start happening while the child is preverbal.

Yes, you're reading it wrong. He doesn't have to be with me, just somewhere in PA. We agreed that he won't take her west in a plane or by car until she's 3 years old.

 

[nagol818]

Its probably wise for the agreement to stipulate that both parties agree that the US (and particularly your state) has jurisdiction of all matters regarding the child.

Excellent advise! I will do that. Thank you.

 

[betterthanher]

Well, we are working on the agreement to look something like this:

The parties will have Joint Legal custody of child.
The plaintiff(mother) will have primary physical custody.
The defendant(father) will have partial physical custody.

Until the child is 3 years of age, the defendant will exercise all visitation in PA. The plaintiff cannot prevent him from less than 12 visitations per calender year for agreed upon amount of time by both parties. He is permitted to spend every holiday with her in PA beginning at 2pm during this 3 year period. All visitation before the age of 3 requires 14 day written, email acceptable, notification.

Why 14 days?

After 3 years of age, the defendant will have visitation in any geographical location of his choice for a period agreed upon by both parties with 30 days written, email acceptable, notice.

This won't fly nor should he agree to this. You're trying to control HIS parenting time. As long as you are given notification of where the child will be with him, that's all you need to know.

Starting 2008 the defendant will have every even year Christmas/New Years and 30 days every June, July or August agreed upon by both parties.

And who would it have to be convenient to? Once again, it seems by reading this that you are trying to have ultimate control here. It's HIS parenting time, so it should be up to him. Since there is a 3-month window, you shouldn't be scheduling any activities for the child that *could* possibly cause some interference with his time. If he notifies you in enough time that he wants all of July, then give it to him. What month should be up to him and the language should reflect that.

When school age begins, the 30 days will be contained within child's school schedule. When the defendant comes to exercise his visitation he must spend 24 hours in PA before leaving with the child.

What is THIS?! You really need to let go of this leash. You have no legal right to even remotely try to control his parenting time -- which is exactly what you're doing. I am surprised I am the only one who's noticed this.

The defendant must visit in PA a minimum of 2 times per calendar year in order to exercise his partial custody rights in any geographical location including PA.

Nope...you have no legal right to "order" anyone to visit your state a set-amount of time per year. You're overstepping your legal boundaries and this won't fly either nor should he agree to it.

Phone numbers and address be provided to each party for all visits/vacations.

OK...

Anyone have any other suggestions?

I thought about adding that he needs to visit the subject of getting our daughter's passport because he's the one requiring her to travel out of the country. Everyone will need a passport to enter Canada by December 31 2007. But in reality, he will have to get her one to exercise his visitation after she is 3 years of age so I decided not to bring it up.

I don't like this plan at all (you asked after all). You're trying to control all of the shots here and you have no legal right to. You're trying to control his parental time with his child. Any decent lawyer would shoot holes all over this. This plan only benefits you. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

I would suggest visiting www.deltabravo.net and looking at some of their excellent parenting plans they have and start constructing a FAIR plan from that. This one isn't good at all.

 

[nagol818]

Why 14 days?

As opposed to?? 2, 12, 18, 120? It's two week notice. The attorney came up with it so the father and I assumed it was standard. And it seems reasonable to the father and I.

This won't fly nor should he agree to this. You're trying to control HIS parenting time. As long as you are given notification of where the child will be with him, that's all you need to know.

The father and I, WE, already decided that our daughter shouldn't be so far away from the mother for the first 3 years of her life since he isn't able to be around to bond with her.

And who would it have to be convenient to? Once again, it seems by reading this that you are trying to have ultimate control here. It's HIS parenting time, so it should be up to him. Since there is a 3-month window, you shouldn't be scheduling any activities for the child that *could* possibly cause some interference with his time. If he notifies you in enough time that he wants all of July, then give it to him. What month should be up to him and the language should reflect that.

The attorney came up with June, July or August because the father wants her for 30 days in the SUMMER with 30 days notice. What don't you get about that?(rhetorical)

What is THIS?! You really need to let go of this leash. You have no legal right to even remotely try to control his parenting time -- which is exactly what you're doing. I am surprised I am the only one who's noticed this.


Nope...you have no legal right to "order" anyone to visit your state a set-amount of time per year. You're overstepping your legal boundaries and this won't fly either nor should he agree to it.


OK...



I don't like this plan at all (you asked after all). You're trying to control all of the shots here and you have no legal right to. You're trying to control his parental time with his child. Any decent lawyer would shoot holes all over this. This plan only benefits you. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

I would suggest visiting www.deltabravo.net and looking at some of their excellent parenting plans they have and start constructing a FAIR plan from that. This one isn't good at all.

I didn't continue the comments because the bottom line is the father and I have been working on this TOGETHER with one attorney. We are both doing what is in the best interest of our daughter; not what's in the best interest of either of us. Most of the things in the agreement HE came up with. We both realize that one day things could change; we may not always get along like we do now and we don't want to even chance the possibility of other's influencing us. That's sad to say but it happens. By putting expectations in this agreement it sets a standard for us that benefits our daughter.

We're still in love. Our problem is neither of us will move. He's an only child so he feels a responsibility to his aging parents to stay close to them. I have a 12 year old daughter that I will basically lose if we were to move out there at this time. It gets complicated. We talk on the phone every night. Neither of us are seeing anyone else right now so when he comes, he will sleep in my bed. When our daughter and I go to visit, I'll sleep in his bed. If the day comes that either of us do see someone else, we will split the hotel charge.

It's not an easy situation but we're doing the best we can. I realize that I have to be flexible because it's not possible for him to exercise his visitation using a set plan. His job doesn't allow it. That's why, for example, there's a 3 month window for his 30 days.

Oh, and I was the one who suggested we draw up a custody/visitation agreement because it makes me uneasy with him living in a whole other country. Otherwise, it probably never would have been done.

 

[LdiJ]

I didn't continue the comments because the bottom line is the father and I have been working on this TOGETHER with one attorney. We are both doing what is in the best interest of our daughter; not what's in the best interest of either of us. Most of the things in the agreement HE came up with. We both realize that one day things could change; we may not always get along like we do now and we don't want to even chance the possibility of other's influencing us. That's sad to say but it happens. By putting expectations in this agreement it sets a standard for us that benefits our daughter.

We're still in love. Our problem is neither of us will move. He's an only child so he feels a responsibility to his aging parents to stay close to them. I have a 12 year old daughter that I will basically lose if we were to move out there at this time. It gets complicated. We talk on the phone every night. Neither of us are seeing anyone else right now so when he comes, he will sleep in my bed. When our daughter and I go to visit, I'll sleep in his bed. If the day comes that either of us do see someone else, we will split the hotel charge.

It's not an easy situation but we're doing the best we can. I realize that I have to be flexible because it's not possible for him to exercise his visitation using a set plan. His job doesn't allow it. That's why, for example, there's a 3 month window for his 30 days.

Oh, and I was the one who suggested we draw up a custody/visitation agreement because it makes me uneasy with him living in a whole other country. Otherwise, it probably never would have been done.

Don't sweat it....you got a response from someone who didn't appear to understand your situation or your agreement very well. It happens.