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deadbeat dad

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lydz13

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New Mexico

My son is now 2 yrs. old and his father has known about him since the beginning that he was the father, to legalize everything he even requested a paternity test, which undoubtedly he is the father. However, he has no part in our lives by his choice, he doesn't send birthday cards, christmas presents, phone calls, absolutely nothing. Yet, he wants to be able to claim for tax reasons to get a refund when he has 2 other children already that live with him. I was unaware that I had a choice not to allow him to claim him alternate years until a few days later. Is it too late? Can I just not sign the Form 8332 that would allow him to claim my son, or will I get in trouble? Or could I somehow appeal it? :confused:
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
lydz13 said:
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New Mexico

My son is now 2 yrs. old and his father has known about him since the beginning that he was the father, to legalize everything he even requested a paternity test, which undoubtedly he is the father. However, he has no part in our lives by his choice, he doesn't send birthday cards, christmas presents, phone calls, absolutely nothing. Yet, he wants to be able to claim for tax reasons to get a refund when he has 2 other children already that live with him. I was unaware that I had a choice not to allow him to claim him alternate years until a few days later. Is it too late? Can I just not sign the Form 8332 that would allow him to claim my son, or will I get in trouble? Or could I somehow appeal it? :confused:
Are there court orders stating that he gets to claim the child every other year for tax purposes? Are you ordered to provide him a signed form 8332? Did you sign an agreement allowing him the tax deduction every other year?
Is dad paying child support regularly and consistantly?

Are you aware that even if dad gets the exemption you are still entitled to file head of household and still qualify for earned income credit and daycare credits? (assuming that your income qualifies you for that).

The answers to those questions are critical...so please answer every question.
 

abstract99

Senior Member
Are you asking this for tax purposes? If so did you already file and get your return whereas he is just now filing. A persons SSn can only be ran through the system once. If it come through a second time the IRS will then contact you to get to the bottom of it. If dad is behind on CS it won't really matter anyways because the NCP can only claim the child if he is current.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
newguyhere said:
Are you asking this for tax purposes? If so did you already file and get your return whereas he is just now filing. A persons SSn can only be ran through the system once. If it come through a second time the IRS will then contact you to get to the bottom of it. If dad is behind on CS it won't really matter anyways because the NCP can only claim the child if he is current.
Uh...newguy...WRONG....I am an accountant and tax preparer and I could write a hole book about why that answer is wrong....just take my work for it.
 

lydz13

Junior Member
New Mexico

No I have not signed the form 8332
I am unsure if it is court ordered, because we never even we to court we met with who i am assuming was the hearing officer in the lobby of a court house.
It was a new modification hand written in the papers
He does pay the support but my son only gets $50 a month because he has to pay back what I have been getting in TANF.
My son only lives with me I pay rent, utilities, buy clothes, pampers, food, etc. which is far more than 51%
The ******* has never even wanted to see my son.
 
LdiJ said:
Uh...newguy...WRONG....I am an accountant and tax preparer and I could write a hole book about why that answer is wrong....just take my work for it.
You are an accountant L?????? I see...... :eek: :D :D :D :D :D
 

abstract99

Senior Member
LdiJ said:
Uh...newguy...WRONG....I am an accountant and tax preparer and I could write a hole book about why that answer is wrong....just take my work for it.
Oh really. Then go ahead and tell me the law that states that a minor can be claimed 2x in one year and I will run it by my FIL who is a CPA (and since you are an accountant you would know the difference between a CPA and an accountant). And then I will be sure to just go ahead and tell my judge to take the clause out of my parenting plan that says mom gets to claim the kids because obviously we both can. Oh and I would think that an accountant would know the difference between the word hole and whole. If NCP is in arrears then CP is the one that is allowed to claim them plain and simple. Any judge will tell you that you can't claim a child on your taxes if you are not financially supporting them. What would you be getting a return on then? If mom had already claimed the child and dad does it to then the IRS will either deny dad's claim or request proof from mom that says that she can claim them. I filed my taxes 2 years ago on base and they IRS wouldn't even acept my return, I had to go back and take my daughter out. But hey since everybody's case is different go ahead and tell me the law that I asked for in the beginning.
 
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stealth2

Under the Radar Member
Actually, newguy, even as a non-CPA OR accountant, I saw things wrong with your response as well. No need to get all huffy.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
newguyhere said:
Oh really. Then go ahead and tell me the law that states that a minor can be claimed 2x in one year and I will run it by my FIL who is a CPA (and since you are an accountant you would know the difference between a CPA and an accountant). And then I will be sure to just go ahead and tell my judge to take the clause out of my parenting plan that says mom gets to claim the kids because obviously we both can. Oh and I would think that an accountant would know the difference between the word hole and whole. If NCP is in arrears then CP is the one that is allowed to claim them plain and simple. Any judge will tell you that you can't claim a child on your taxes if you are not financially supporting them. What would you be getting a return on then? If mom had already claimed the child and dad does it to then the IRS will either deny dad's claim or request proof from mom that says that she can claim them. I filed my taxes 2 years ago on base and they IRS wouldn't even acept my return, I had to go back and take my daughter out. But hey since everybody's case is different go ahead and tell me the law that I asked for in the beginning.
Yes, I know what a CPA is....and if your FIL the CPA is a CPA who specializes in individual tax then he would tell you that your answer was wrong too....even if he doesn't specialize in individual tax its still highly probable that he would know what's wrong with your answer.

Its much more complex than that. Here is an excerpt from an article that may give you a taste of why your answer was wrong:

"Since 1984, the IRS has refined the language regarding unmarried parents to make it clear that the custodial parent must in some way, generally voluntarily relinquish the dependency to the non-custodial parent either via a form 8332 or via a court ordered agreement with the non-custodial parent. One would think that this would remove much of the state family law court’s authority to decide who gets the tax exemption. Judge’s and higher courts in many states have very differing opinions on whether or not they actually have the authority to make decisions regarding the tax exemption. However, in general the courts have begun ordering custodial parents to sign the form 8332, or face sanctions for contempt of court, in order to avoid any questions regarding that issue. This is an issue that is tricky, because the state family courts are usurping authority that they do not have. Its an issue that may need to be address by Congress in the future. It is also an issue that can be patently unfair, as demonstrated by the Case of King vs Lopez (Jeffrey R. King and Sabrina M. King v. Commissioner. Jimmy R. Lopez and Suzy O. Lopez, Petitioners v. Commissioner, [Exemptions: Dependents: Support test: Agreement on exemptions: Form 8332.] (September 26, 2003)). Mrs. King, who was never married to Mr. Lopez, was forced to sign a form 8332, under duress, releasing the tax exemption to Mr. Lopez from the year 1987 forward. In 1998 and 1999, because Mr. Lopez was providing no child support Mrs. King and her husband took the dependency exemption for her child. The IRS and the courts ruled against Mrs. King, finding that her signature on the form 8332 entitled Mr. Lopez to the exemption, despite the fact that Mr. Lopez provided no support to the child. Had the state family court simply ordered that Mr. Lopez receive the exemption, or had there been an agreement that specified that Mr. Lopez was not entitled to the exemption unless current on child support, instead of Mrs. King being required to provide a signed form 8332, then Mrs. King would have had proper recourse and the exemption would have been denied to Mr. Lopez. However, because Mrs. King was forced to sign the form 8332, she was denied effective justice.
The case above is not uncommon. Often, those child support orders made by state court judge’s neglect to include language that requires the non-custodial parent to be current in their child support obligation in order to take the dependency exemption. Many of those parents continue to take the exemption because they have a court order entitling them to take the exemption, yet ignore their child support obligation as illustrated in the case above. Some will not take the exemption, knowing that they are not supporting their child, but somewhere down the road find themselves in a financial bind one year, and suddenly take it anyway, because they have a court order that states that they are entitled to do so. Since the above case illustrates that the IRS and the tax courts will depend strictly on a form 8332, rather than merit or justice, its clear that the policy of judge’s ordering parents to sign form 8332 is a very faulty one. A judge can rescind a court order, but a judge does not have the authority to rescind a form 8332.
One thing that the IRS has done in recent years, which has both simplified and complicated the issue of false claiming of dependency exemptions, is that while the IRS has apparently, and rather quietly, changed their procedures for dealing with duplicate dependency exemptions. In the past, the first person filing would be able to file electronically, the second would have to file a paper return, and the refund of the second party would be held until the IRS determined who in reality was entitled to take the exemption. What is happening now, instead, is that the IRS is promptly issuing the refund to both parties, and then later in the year sends out a letter to both parties stating that there has been a duplicate exemption taken, gives no opinion as to which party was not entitled to the exemption, and encourages then offending party to amend their return. This has been a big help to parents who are entitled to the exemption but the other parent has taken it. They still have to wait longer to receive their refund, but still receive it within a normal amount of time. However, now that many parents who are not entitled to take the exemption have discovered this “new policy”, it has also encouraged them to take the exemption as well, knowing that they can gain current financial benefits, while being able to worry about the liabilities much further down the road."
 

abstract99

Senior Member
What does all of that have to do with the OP? She already said that she has not signed the form 8332. Unless she was ordered by the court to sign it or dad had in writing that he can claim them on even or odd numbered years then she doesn't have to. Courts do not generally order the CP to sign it. There are a lot of things that you are not taking into consideration. Incomes of parents, custodial time, the parents other dependents, all take play on if it would be ordered.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
The long and the short of it is that OP needs to find out if the court ordered Dad be allowed to take the deduction. Without knowing that, it's impossible to know where she stands.

But newguy - when you make categorical statements (" If dad is behind on CS it won't really matter anyways because the NCP can only claim the child if he is current.") you should either provide a cite from the IRS rules or from the pertinent state statute. I do believe that is not a hard and fast law/rule. I'd love to be proven wrong.
 

haiku

Senior Member
lydz13 said:
What is the name of your state?What is the name of your state? New Mexico

My son is now 2 yrs. old and his father has known about him since the beginning that he was the father, to legalize everything he even requested a paternity test, which undoubtedly he is the father. However, he has no part in our lives by his choice, he doesn't send birthday cards, christmas presents, phone calls, absolutely nothing. Yet, he wants to be able to claim for tax reasons to get a refund when he has 2 other children already that live with him. I was unaware that I had a choice not to allow him to claim him alternate years until a few days later. Is it too late? Can I just not sign the Form 8332 that would allow him to claim my son, or will I get in trouble? Or could I somehow appeal it? :confused:
she states she did not know she did not have to allow it until "a few days later" she now wants to know if she has to sign the form to let him, or will she get in trouble if she does not. and can she appeal it.

we can infer from this, she may very well have signed a court order, and if so, it does not matter, if it is the NCP's year to claim, they get to claim.

besides form 8332, the IRS, I have learned also takes signed court orders. SO even if she did not sign the form, he still could claim the kid.

the "must be current on support" is a COURT thing not an IRS thing. And it is not standard in every court order. my husbands for example is given the claim for all future years and there is no stipulation that he be current.

the 50% rule per IRS regs ony comes into play, when there are no court orders.

The bottom line is, whether or not the IRS gives you the refund legally, if there is a court order that the IRS was unaware of, the recipient may find themselves having to pay back any money gotten in defience of that court order.

She needs to tell us what her court order says, and not what she thinks is happening.
 

abstract99

Senior Member
To claim an exemption for a dependent, the Internal Revenue Service specifies five "tests" that must be met. One of the five tests is the "support test," which states that the taxpayer claiming the exemption must have provided more than half of the dependent's total support for the tax year in question.

However, where the dependent is a child whose parents are divorced or separated, the IRS has a special rule, known as the "Support Test for Divorced or Separated Parents." Under this special rule, the custodial parent is automatically treated (i.e., "deemed") as having provided more than half of the child's total support during the tax year (and is therefore entitled to claim the child as her dependent). It does not matter how much money was paid by the other parent (i.e., non-custodial dad), even if he's the one who actually provided MORE than half the child's total support. The Internal Revenue Code section that is the basis for the special rule for divorced or separated parents is found at 26 USC § 152(e).

Typically (for support orders after 1984), the special IRS rule for divorced or separated parents bars the non-custodial parent from claiming the exemption unless (1) the custodial parent gives their written consent (usually using IRS Form 8332 to do so) or (2) a court decree clearly gives the NCP the unconditional right to claim the dependency exemption (meaning that he has the absolute right to claim the exemption without having to meet any special conditions, such as, for example, being up-to-date in his support payments, etc.).

BUT........ The "Support Test for Divorced or Separated Parents" applies only to parents who were previously married to one another and who are now divorced or legally separated, or who are still married to one another but who lived apart at all times during the last six months of the calendar year.

The "Support Test for Divorced or Separated Parents" does NOT apply to parents who have never been married to one another.

The issue of the arrears can be addressed either in family court or tax court. In some cases, if the NCP is in arrears and they will receive a higher return than the CP for claiming the child then the courts will allow the NCP to claim the child even with the arrears and intercept the tax return to go to the CP to cover arrears. In cases where the NCP is in arrears and claiming the child will not increase their return (in most cases with high income NCP's it will only decrease how much they have to pay) and the CP claiming the child will receive a return from doing so, the courts will rule that CP can claim the child due to the fact that NCP is in arrears and there is no benifit to the debt of the arrears by NCP claiming the child.
 

stealth2

Under the Radar Member
Aah, so your original statement WAS incorrect in re the arrears. And again - a court order trumps.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
stealth2 said:
Aah, so your original statement WAS incorrect in re the arrears. And again - a court order trumps.
Yes it was...the regs don't address the issues of arrearages...its state courts that do that, and not all judges address the issue.

The other thing that was inaccurate is that a dependents SS number can only go through the system once. It can only go through once electronically, but it can go through a second time via paper.

Laura
 
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