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This occurred in Texas.

I'll try and keep this story as short as possible.
I was making a left from my neighborhood in order to go to school. I turned out onto the 2 lane road, and behind me were four cars followed by an LEO officer. I was in my roommate's car which is a pretty big cop magnet (Subaru STI), anyways next thing I know I'm getting pulled over.
The first thing the cop told me was that he was off duty. My roommate didn't have valid registration or insurance for his car so I was given 2 tickets for that on top of a ticket for following to close.

Now my question is the cop is four cars behind me on a single lane road, how would he have seen me following too close? Secondly, if the cop doesn't know fast I was going how could he possibly say I was following to closely?

Also the ticket for following to closely is $160 which is completely ridiculous, considering at no point was I ever "following anybody to closely."

I have an excellent attorney that is willing to take it to court (or at least threaten to in order to get a better deal), does it sound like I have any type of chance or no?
 


Maestro64

Member
Was he in a marked patrol car, if so was he really off duty?

The reason I ask, it that it is generally accepted that off duty officer can not issue citations, what they usually do is call an on duty officer to come and issue a citation base on his observation.

On the following too close, that could be easy to fight and win, as you pointed out how did he determine the following distance. usually they have to be to the side of you or above so they can determine whether you leaving 2 or 3 second of space.

The invalid registration and insurance should be your friends responsibility. Was the tickets made out to you or your friend. Not sure how that works whether it the driver or register owner responsibility. It is kind of like renting a car and getting a ticket because they failed to have it properly register in some cases it would be hard to know if it was.

Maybe some who know the specifics on that can chime.
 

seniorjudge

Senior Member
...
The reason I ask, it that it is generally accepted that off duty officer can not issue citations, what they usually do is call an on duty officer to come and issue a citation base on his observation.
...


And by whom is this " generally accepted"?
 

JustAPal00

Senior Member
The invalid registration and insurance should be your friends responsibility. Was the tickets made out to you or your friend. Not sure how that works whether it the driver or register owner responsibility. It is kind of like renting a car and getting a ticket because they failed to have it properly register in some cases it would be hard to know if it was.

Maybe some who know the specifics on that can chime.
It is illeagal to drive a car on the road that is not registered and insured. The driver is responsible for making sure it is! In this case the driver didn't do that so it is his responsibility
 
The officer was in a marked police vehicles, lights and everything. He said he originally noticed me going an excess of speed on the road I was on before I made the left.
This is a realist observation as you can see the road I was on from the road & location he was at.
The police office did tell me he was off duty, and no he did not call another officer to issue the citation. The 3 citations were issued to be, but my roommate had valid registration & insurance for the date the citation issue, as did I; so that's not the part I'm necessarily worried about.
I have to pay a $20 fee for not having valid insurance registration on me; but the thing that really gets me is the $160 for following to close. Yet there is no possible way the LEO could tell I was following too close, since he never EVER had a clear shot of my car (seeing as it's 1 lane for each direction of traffic).
Yet the police officer told me up front he was not on duty, he was in civilian clothing (yet in an a marked police vehicle). Also there are four police officers that live in my apartment complex (as required by law) so it could easily have been one of them (I haven't met any of them).
Thank you for the help FA.C, I've never been disappointed with the help I've received from this site.
 

Maestro64

Member
First check TX statue on fact the office was not in uniform, and the fact he said he was off duty, many states have laws saying police can not issue a citation, unless they are on duty, or in uniform, or on traffic duty. I believe TX has rules around this.

Next if ticket turns out to be valid even though he was off duty, research the following too close law and see what is required to be cite for this. As you pointed out, focus on his location relative to yours and how in fact did he determine the following distance. These laws are so subjective I have seen a number of case laws on this subject where more serious offenses got tossed because the only reason the officer had to stop someone was to claim they were following too close and had not method to justify their statements.
 
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Maestro64

Member
Also there are four police officers that live in my apartment complex (as required by law) so it could easily have been one of them (I haven't met any of them).
What's "required by law"?
I am guessing, but I think he is inferring they live in the apartment complex because the local law requires them to live in the town they service and since police are not necessarily paid well this place is the most cost affect place or they are all buddies and choose the same place.
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
Everybody is focusing on the fact that the officer was 4 cars behind as opposed to being on the side of the OP's vehicle when in fact there are a number of ways to conclude that someone is following too close. I'll list a few here:

1. Were you riding your brakes? When you do that, your brake lights which by the way happen to be on the back of your car usually give a clear indication that you are getting too close to whatever is in front of you.

2. Does the car have a loud exhaust? If so, it is easy to hear when you are stepping on the gas & when you're not as you get too close to the car in front of you, your foot goes off the gas. This can also be in combination with #1 above. That makes it even more clear by watching the brake lights and listening for your car's engine. If you're frequently switching your foot from gas pedal to brake pedal while following another car, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that you are following too close.

3. Were you "straddling" the left side of the lane in an attempt to get the driver in front of you to seed up or "get out of the way"? Typically, we drive in the center of the lane we are in. So if the officer decided to drive closer to the left side of his lane while looking up ahead, he can easily see that you're "straddling" your lane even while he's 4 car behind.

Any combination of these observation will probably earn you a short chat wuith local law enforcement!

But wait, there's more. . . Speaking of "being in a hurry",
I was in my roommate's car which is a pretty big cop magnet (Subaru STI)
. . . Nobody buys a Subaru because its nice looking car!!! Fact is, its ugly. But they (meaning younger drivers) buy it because of horse power. Combine that with:
A. The OP's own admission that he was "speeding" prior to making the left turn &
B. His own statement that he was driving a "cop magnet"...
And you are left with a feisty driver who despite the fact that he knew that a cop was 4 cars behind, & in addition to knowing that he was driving without a valid registration, still drove in what I can only assume was an aggressive manner, and yet he is on here asking if he "has a case". Welcome back, by the way!

I have an excellent attorney that is willing to take it to court (or at least threaten to in order to get a better deal), does it sound like I have any type of chance or no?
It doesn't sound like you have much confidence in your "excellent" attorney who by the way, wouldn't be "threatening" to take it to court; he may try to plea bargain all while the prosecution might "threaten to take it to court". Big difference!!!

Personally, and in general, I think "following too close" is a judgement call. And more often than not, I think such a citation is issued in lieu of another violation that the officer is unable to fully justify/prove (i.e. Speeding).

When that goes to court and due to the fact that an officer is deemed to be somewhat of an expert by the court, added to the assumption that he is completely "honest" in his observations, conclusions and subsequent statements, you will lose your case 9 out of 10 times.

Your only saving grace might be in the question of whether an officer must be in uniform to have the jurisdiction to issue a citation or not. But then again, one can assume that the officer would not waste his time to make a stop, voluntarily state that he is off duty and out of uniform, issue a citation if he didn't have such ability. So I will leave that for someone who knows the Texas Vehicle Code better than I to elaborate on that one.

Good luck!
 
Well I live in a college town (Lubbock, Tx) and there are 8 or so apartment complexes for college students to live in. Each of these apartment complexes have police officers living in them.

From what I can remember I'm pretty sure I didn't hit the brakes until I approached the traffic light I was heading towards; also no I was not making an attempt to pass the driver in front of me.
The car does have a very loud exhaust, the cop mentioned how he "heard and saw me speeding" before I made the turn onto the road I was pulled over on.
Thanks for everybody's help I suppose I'll let my attorney know about him being in civilian clothing and how the LEO told me he was off duty.
I'm not completely sure if I was speeding on the road before the turn, as it is a very short road (1/4 to 1/2 mile long), doesn't even have any posted speed limit, nor does it even have lines on the road.
Also I_Got_Banned I completely agree with you, people don't buy Subaru for anything but the performance. I drive the new Lexus IS 350 and prefer style to speed, I'm not impressed by the STI by any means, nor do I drive it aggressively.
Personally, and in general, I think "following too close" is a judgement call. And more often than not, I think such a citation is issued in lieu of another violation that the officer is unable to fully justify/prove (i.e. Speeding).
I completely agree, if he had been able to clock me he would've given me the speeding ticket instead.
My attorney is going to head to the Municipal Court today to try and plea bargain I suppose, but I also let him know about the LEO being in civilian clothing and being office duty.

Also special thanks thanks to I_got_banned & Maestro64 for the help.
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
Well I live in a college town (Lubbock, Tx) and there are 8 or so apartment complexes for college students to live in. Each of these apartment complexes have police officers living in them.
That's good to know... But how does that make it "the law"?

From what I can remember I'm pretty sure I didn't hit the brakes until I approached the traffic light I was heading towards;
Hahahaha... "From what you can remember"... Pretty sure but not "SURE"... An alternative to having to use brakes would be to stay in a lower gear (like 2nd or 3rd) but with a "very loud exhaust" that can be just as good an indicator that you're "riding bumpers"!

also no I was not making an attempt to pass the driver in front of me.
May be because you couldn't pass (?oncoming traffic?) but were you riding his bumper on the outside of the lane? You didn't comment on that point.

I suppose I'll let my attorney know about him being in civilian clothing and how the LEO told me he was off duty.
You mean you had spoken to him before, he assured you he can get it dismissed or at the least reduced and yet you had not mentioned those 2 facts to him?

I'm not completely sure if I was speeding on the road before the turn, as it is a very short road (1/4 to 1/2 mile long), doesn't even have any posted speed limit, nor does it even have lines on the road.
Let me quote what you said in your first post:
. . . Actually, skip your first post... I'll quote you from this post. 2 paragraph after you made that statement that "you're not completely sure if I was speeding. . ." you said:

I completely agree, if he had been able to clock me he would've given me the speeding ticket instead.
Maybe that would have been a bogus ticket too... Huh?
My point is not to embarass you... My point is that you should be careful about what you say and how you say it.
Out here in California and if you get pulled over (say for speeding); what do you thing the first question that the officer will ask you?
"Do you know why I stopped you?" And regardless of what your reply, his follow up question is:
"Do you know how fast you were going?"
The average person might think "maybe if I'm honest with him he will just give me a warning" when in fact the officer had already decided to write a citation.
Now do you think the officer will write your answers down in his notes & do you think he will use those answers against you as part of his "under oath testimony" at your trial?
You better believe he will!

I drive the new Lexus IS 350 and prefer style to speed
Yet on the day you were cited you opted for a less stylish car that was neither registered nor insured!!!

Also special thanks thanks to I_got_banned & Maestro64 for the help.
I thank you for not taking offense to any of my comments. Do us all a favor though... Come back and post the results once all is said and done.
Once again, good luck!
 
Can police officers really write a citation purely based on speculation (what he's assumes is going on)? What is the definition of following to close, what is the set number of feet per mph?

I'm trying to find the actual legal definition of "following to close," could anybody please give me a good place to start?

There were a few cars every now and again coming in the opposite direction, but I was going, nor was I making an attempt to pass him. The place I was turning out was just up the road and I wasn't in a hurry. Along with that I was not riding his bumper (15 to 20 feet between us, the road is a 40mph) I was simply just driving like a sane and lawful citizen (or so I thought I was).

The reason I'm not sure if I was speeding was because there isn't a posted speed limit on the road, I don't know what classification the road falls onto so I couldn't necessarily say it was a 20mph road or a 40mph.

Yes, an oil change was coming up on my car and I figured I would take out my roommate's car since he had been in Europe for over a month. Also he had both insurance and inspection at the time of the citation, he just hadn't put up his new inspection (which ended up being in the glove box); and for some reason didn't put his valid insurance in the car (doh!).

I'll let you all know of what happens, the legal issues that I do post in here usually end pretty favorable with me; probably due for the advice i receive while in here.
About 18 months back I was pulled over for not having a front license plate on my out of state vehicle in Jacksboro, Tx. A simple traffic stop turned into a nightmare when the police asked if they could search my vehicle. Of course, knowing that it was well within my legal right to deny the search, I told them No. They ended up deciding they were going to search anyways and long story short they ended up finding a bong and about a gram of marijuana so they arrested my roommate (yes the same one) and I. But everything was caught on tape, and the entire time I told them what they were doing was completely illegal. I posted on here and everybody told me I was in the wrong (which I was for having an illegal substance), but I did get some good advice and I'm sure that's what helped keep me from getting prosecuted. In the end (about a month before trial), after numerous request for the video tape, they ended up "losing the tape." But without the legal advice I had gotten here I'm sure I'd still be on probation right now, actually I'm pretty sure seniorjudge commented in that threat.

Anyways thanks for the help, esp I_got_banned, I'll be sure to post the results here.
 

I_Got_Banned

Senior Member
Can police officers really write a citation purely based on speculation (what he's assumes is going on)?
Do you really want an answer to that question?
Seriously?

Knowing that a court will tend to believe an officer's testimony no matter what, the answer to your question is "YES" without a doubt.

However, you also have to keep in mind that generally, an officer does not typically benefit any more from a guilty verdict than he would from a not guilty verdict, I'd like to assume that they would not let their ego come into the picture nor will they let the power trip that some officers do have play a role in how the do their job.

There are a few "bad apples in every crate" and some officers, cosidering we are all human, might lean that way some days while being totally straight up on other days.

Lastly, read the story that you told in your last post. When they decided they wanted to search your car, I doubt that you had given them reason to attempt a search. Yet they went purely on speculation and they found something.
What is the definition of following to close, what is the set number of feet per mph?
My guess is that it depends on the state. I know that in California and if you were to read the DMV's Driver's Manual, it states that you are supposed to keep a distance of 1 car length for every 10 miles per hour of speed. So for 40mph you're looking at 4 car lengths; for 60mph you're looking at 6 cr lengths. But nobody follows that; I highly doubt that anybody enforces that.

I'm trying to find the actual legal definition of "following to close," could anybody please give me a good place to start?
You can start with the vehicle code section which you cited for. Get the section number off the citation, Google it and that should give you as good a start as anything else. You might find a few other code sections that are referenced in there. Search for those and read them...

You can also search the DMV website and see what the recomendation is.

Keep in mind that
A. In court, and regardless of what the "legal definition is" it is your word against that of the officer. 9 out of 10 times and unless you can find a way to discredit the officer or to somehow raise seculation as to his ability to determine that you in fact were in violation, the driver will lose just on that basis.

B. A "following too closely" is typically, like we agreed on before, a judgement call
Hope this helps... Since the officer can be deemed to be a so called expert, you would be hard pressed to prove him wrong!
 
Ugh I just can't believe I can get a ticket based purely off of what he thought was happening. To me it's pretty plain and clear, he either saw me following to close or he didn't; from the view of being directly behind me I couldn't see how he could tell where my hood ended compared to the bumper of the real car. I really hope this all works out, I don't have a problem paying the ticket, just $160 is a bit ridiculous considering the situation.

But I really do appreciate the help I_Got_Banned. I'll post the results here as soon as I find that out.

Also about your sig I_Got_Banned, if I'm second in line at a stop sign and the person infront of me proceeds through it. Am I then obligated pullup closer to the white line and stopping for 3 seconds before proceeding, or can I just wait the three seconds from a car length behind the stop sign and continue through it?
 
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