do we need to involve bio-dad

[paulie0130]

What is the name of your state? Pennsylvania

My girlfriend and I are seriously considering marriage, and I would like to adopt her 3 yr old son. The bio-father denied paternity, doesn't appear on the birth certificate, and hasn't been involved in her or her son's life at all. He has never provided any child support. Do we have to involve this guy in the adoption process? Does he need to voluntarily terminate his rights? Does he even have rights since he's not even on the birth certificate? Could he stop the adoption? My girlfriend tends to think if this guy gets wind that some other guy would wants to raise "his son" he'll fight it if he can(funny considering, he denies paternity).

 

[BelizeBreeze]

What is the name of your state? Pennsylvania

My girlfriend and I are seriously considering marriage, and I would like to adopt her 3 yr old son. The bio-father denied paternity, doesn't appear on the birth certificate, and hasn't been involved in her or her son's life at all. He has never provided any child support. Do we have to involve this guy in the adoption process? Does he need to voluntarily terminate his rights? Does he even have rights since he's not even on the birth certificate? Could he stop the adoption? My girlfriend tends to think if this guy gets wind that some other guy would wants to raise "his son" he'll fight it if he can(funny considering, he denies paternity).

You don't involve him, the court will. And if your girlfriend lies about the bio father or his existence, then the adoption can be overturned on fraud and she can face a few years in jail.

Now, what do you think's going to happen.

 

[paulie0130]

We won't lie

We won't lie. We'll tell the court everything. I guess we fight. Unless we are lucky and the guy just let's the adoption go through. I think that's what will happen, my girlfriend thinks otherwise. Even if we have to fight I can't see how he could possibly win, but the US legal system is weird sometimes.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

What is the name of your state? Pennsylvania

My girlfriend and I are seriously considering marriage, and I would like to adopt her 3 yr old son. The bio-father denied paternity, doesn't appear on the birth certificate, and hasn't been involved in her or her son's life at all. He has never provided any child support. Do we have to involve this guy in the adoption process? Does he need to voluntarily terminate his rights? Does he even have rights since he's not even on the birth certificate? Could he stop the adoption? My girlfriend tends to think if this guy gets wind that some other guy would wants to raise "his son" he'll fight it if he can(funny considering, he denies paternity).

Yes, he needs to be notified of the pending adoption but you will have to be married first. You do understand, that if you adopt the child and later divorce you will be responsible for child support.

 

[paulie0130]

Thanks for the warning, but I'm willing

Yes I understand adoption means I become completely legally responsible for him - he'd be MY son. That's exactly what I want.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

We won't lie. We'll tell the court everything. I guess we fight. Unless we are lucky and the guy just let's the adoption go through. I think that's what will happen, my girlfriend thinks otherwise. Even if we have to fight I can't see how he could possibly win, but the US legal system is weird sometimes.

Actually, it's a very good system.

just because he doesn't pay support, visit the child or do anything else to enjoy his legal rights, doesn't mean he is a bad father.

For example, did your Girlfriend EVER go to court and get a support order? NO
He will not be penalized for something he is not LEGALLY liable for.

I think you need a come to jesus with Girlfriend.

 

[paulie0130]

Please don't judge

OK, my girlfriend doesn't have a law degree and neither do I. Her boyfriend denied the boy was his not b/c he had good reason, but b/c he's a deadbeat. If a girl tells a guy he's the father, shouldn't he want to know? I would. Just denying it and running away is "deadbeat" material. Why is it her issue that he's a deadbeat?

So she did the responsible thing and had her son and has been raising him on her own. She never pursued child support, because she #1 she is dirt poor and can't afford a lawyer, #2 doesn't want the guy involved in any way. She doesn't want his money or his presence. She and her son have been fine without him. We just want to be a family.

We won't be getting married for at least a year, and I know I wouldn't be able to adopt the boy for awhile, too. Would it be better from a legal point of view for her to force the issue and establish paternity?

p.s. I'm not totally sure I get the "Jesus" comment, but (not that it matters on this given topic) She became a Christian a year ago and I am one as well, and she will readily admit that is one big reason she doesn't want the bio-father in the picture cause he lives a very immoral lifestyle.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

OK, my girlfriend doesn't have a law degree and neither do I. Her boyfriend denied the boy was his not b/c he had good reason, but b/c he's a deadbeat. If a girl tells a guy he's the father, shouldn't he want to know? I would. Just denying it and running away is "deadbeat" material. Why is it her issue that he's a deadbeat?

Come on. how old are you? I guess you've NEVER heard of a woman telling a man he's the daddy to get money. no one is saying this is your girlfriend but if she didn't take steps to ensure the CHILD's rights she can't come back now and claim he's a deadbeat.

So she did the responsible thing and had her son and has been raising him on her own. She never pursued child support, because she #1 she is dirt poor and can't afford a lawyer, #2 doesn't want the guy involved in any way. She doesn't want his money or his presence. She and her son have been fine without him. We just want to be a family.

Now you're naieve. it's NOT up to her to make the decision whether or not the father of her baby gets to be in the child's life or not. It's the father's right and the court's responsibility.

Because of her action or inaction, the father WILL be in the child's life now. Even if it's during the court proceedings to terminate his rights.

We won't be getting married for at least a year, and I know I wouldn't be able to adopt the boy for awhile, too. Would it be better from a legal point of view for her to force the issue and establish paternity?

That would be the first step.

p.s. I'm not totally sure I get the "Jesus" comment, but (not that it matters on this given topic) She became a Christian a year ago and I am one as well, and she will readily admit that is one big reason she doesn't want the bio-father in the picture cause he lives a very immoral lifestyle.

Again, that is NOT her decision to make. I hear a little 'throwing stones' here and you'd better leave that behind closed doors when it comes to court.

And two other points you'd better get used to.

1. YOU have no rights in this matter at all except to support her emotionally.
2. If the father does want to become a father you'd better do all you can, the BOTH of you, to insure his rights are protected. Because the easiest way for her to lose in court is to tell the judge what is best for the child.

The child has a mother AND a father.

 

[paulie0130]

#1 - I just got done saying I do not have any law degree, so calling me naive is just repetitive. I acknowledge that! That's why I'm here!

#2 - Your "throwing stones" comment is ridiculous considering you have repeatedly made assumptions about me and my girlfriend without asking for clarification first. Ever think just to ask "Hey why didn't she establish paternity?" rather than make some assumptions about why she did that? And the reason was she was naive. [once again you are right, hope that lifts your mood] Also I was just expressing our PERSONAL opinion, not our LEGAL opinion, cause I don't know enough about law to have that. We have a right to our personal opinion. Regardless I take your point that in court our PERSONAL opinion doesn't matter, it the legal stuff that matters.

She thought if she just lived up to mistakes, was responsible, and raised her son, despite the father's disinterest, that all would be alright. She tried to involve the guy, he didn't want involved. She didn't understand the importance of pressing the matter. In her mind, the father already passed on his "rights". He's just a liar - he knows the child is his. But I am totally getting your point that LEGALLY he hasn't passed on those rights. So despite your negative way of expressing yourself I appreciate the advice.

If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting she should establish paternity, and then fight for what she thinks is best for her son (sole custody, support, etc...)? And if/when he is LEGALLY a deadbeat, that'll make adopting the boy that much easier?

She is really not going to like this. But many times doing the right thing is a hard road. Thank you.

 

[paulie0130]

further research

OK, I've been doing reading all over the internet and I think there may be an easier solution to all this than I thought, but please correct me if my conclusions are wrong. (1) My girlfriend could use the courts to establish paternity now, (2) could allow the bio-father to sign off all his rights (which would take away any rights to make decisions about the child, but oddly enough he would still have to pay child support), and lastly (3) she can sign off her rights for child support. Then after I married her I could adopt the boy with no argument. Am I right in my conclusion?

 

[LdiJ]

OK, I've been doing reading all over the internet and I think there may be an easier solution to all this than I thought, but please correct me if my conclusions are wrong. (1) My girlfriend could use the courts to establish paternity now, (2) could allow the bio-father to sign off all his rights (which would take away any rights to make decisions about the child, but oddly enough he would still have to pay child support), and lastly (3) she can sign off her rights for child support. Then after I married her I could adopt the boy with no argument. Am I right in my conclusion?

Actually, I don't think its necessary to go through all of that unless she feels it necessary to collect child support.

When you are married, and ready to adopt (you may need to be married for a certain length of time before adoption is possible), then an adoption attorney (which you really must use) can send the bio-dad the necessary paperwork for him to stipulate to paternity and sign off on his rights.

 

[paulie0130]

Thanks LdiJ. We do plan on getting an attorney. I just wanted to have a decent knowledge of this stuff so we weren't spending a lot of money we don't just learning stuff from a lawyer when it is all online. We need him to be the "hired gun", not the professor.

I think I'm going to take what I have learned and talk to an attorney about our situation. Thank you all for your help.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

When you are married, and ready to adopt (you may need to be married for a certain length of time before adoption is possible), then an adoption attorney (which you really must use) can send the bio-dad the necessary paperwork for him to stipulate to paternity and sign off on his rights.

FIrst of all, a party cannot stipulate to a fact not proven. So (proposed) bio-dad does not have the right to sign away rights to the child that has not been legally adjudicated his when there is no presumption of paternity due to fact (there was no marriage).

Without providing the court with proof of paternity he has no standing to sign off on anything. And in a non-marital birth, an acknowledgment of paternity is NOT sufficient to preclude a DNA test to determine the legal standing to affect such a right.

The fact that there is no presumption raises the question of legitimacy which the court takes very seriously. There is also the question of IF this man is indeed the father. Regardless of what you feel about your girlfriend, the question then arises "Did she sleep with someone else during the relationship".

while in a marital relationship that question does not alter the fact that the child born OF a marriage is presumed, under law, to be a product of the marriage, there is no such presumption in non-marital relationship.

Contact an attorney yes. But don't expect a judge to accept a randome AOP from some guy who 'could' be the father without undeniable proof of the fact. THEN, after that fact has been established, he has the right to sign away rights to the child or not.

 

[paulie0130]

If we just let this go and didn't do anything until after we are married, I am under the impression that...
(1) He has no legal rights as of right now. No right to custody,no right to visitation, no obligation to support - all because they were not married and he is not on the birth certifcate. He could get that any time by filing the correct paperwork with my girlfriend to establish paternity. Correct?? And that obviously would give him the rights to custody, visitation, and the obligation to support (would that include all back support, as well?).
(2) When we go for the adoption the court itself will force the issue with the presumed father, even going so far as ordering a genetic test if he still denies. Correct?? I believe her that he is the only possible father, but for sake of discussion, if there was another, the court would just go down the line of possible fathers till they found the guy, right?? What if the presumed father just refuses to cooperate with the courts??
(3) Once he is determined to be the father, he could (a) voluntarily terminate his rights and allow the adoption, or (b) deny the adoption, but he would also have to accept his rights of custody, visitation, and the obligation to pay support (and all back support, too?). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks again. Especially to BelizeBreeze!!

 

[BelizeBreeze]

If we just let this go and didn't do anything until after we are married, I am under the impression that...
(1) He has no legal rights as of right now. No right to custody,no right to visitation, no obligation to support - all because they were not married and he is not on the birth certifcate. He could get that any time by going to the courts, but until he would do that he has no rights. Correct??

Correct

(2) When we go for the adoption the court itself will force the issue with the presumed father, even going so far as ordering a genetic test if he still denies. Correct??

Incorrect. There is no WE. You have no legal standing in this at all. as to the other portion of your question, there is no way to know what a court will or will not demand.

I believe her that he is the only possible father, but for sake of discussion, if there was another, the court would just go down the line of possible fathers till they found the guy, right??

Wrong. it's not up to the court to determine the lineage here. It's up to your fiance. She will have to start all proceedings in the case.

What if the presumed father just refuses to cooperate with the courts??

There IS no presumed father. There is an alleged father. And under law, they are completely different. If he refuses to cooperate then that is his right. Your fiance will have to prove to the court that the likelyhood of him being the father is enough to order a DNA test.

(3) Once he is determined to be the father, he could (a) voluntarily terminate his rights and allow the adoption, or (b) deny the adoption, but he would also have to accept his rights of custody, visitation, and the obligation to pay support (would he have to pay all back support, too?). Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, once he is determined by DNA to be the legal father he could contest the adoption. No, can does not have to automatically accept custody, visitation and/or support. And back support is ONLY allowed from the time of filing of the petition for support. It cannot be used as a threat when that threat has not been demanded. So IF there is a petition to determine paternity and support, and support is ordered upon the finding of paternity, back support is ONLY allowed back to when the original petition if filed.

Thanks again. Especially to BelizeBreeze!!

You're welcome.