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Estate - Trust Distribution

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What is the name of your state? Ohio


Hi,

My mother had an uncle and she is a beneficiary of his trust. There is a distribution for my mother from this trust but my mother has passed away. Edward Jones who holds the trust has said in order for the distribution to be received, an estate needs to be setup.

My father has his own will and trust but no estate. EJ won't talk to us about any further details until an Estate Administrator exists.

The Edward Jones office handling the trust is in Missouri. My mother and her uncle both lived and died in Ohio. We do not yet know if we have to go through Probate or not. The counties involved would be Medina and Summit respectively. (uncle/mother)

We're beginners in the subject and know nothing about setting up an Estate.

We've been directed that we need an Estate Attorney to setup an Estate. What we don't know is what the costs involved are, should be, or what would be outrageously expensive for a said Attorney's services. For all we know we could go to "EstatesAreUs.com" and create one for $50, but wouldn't know.

What we have accomplished so far is an initial consultation with an Estate Attorney and their rate is $350/hr.

What is the best way to go about this from others familiar?



Thank you for reading,

Chris
 
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Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
What is the best way to go about this from others familiar?
Unfortunately there isn't a lot I can tell you as to what to do since I haven't read the trust document, don't know what assets are the in the trust, nor do I know what other assets she may have had outside the trust. I also don't know the date the trust was formed and funded and the date of your mother's death. All that is important information to be able to answer those questions. Which is why I think your decision to make an appointment with an estate/trust attorney is a good one.
 
Unfortunately there isn't a lot I can tell you as to what to do since I haven't read the trust document, don't know what assets are the in the trust, nor do I know what other assets she may have had outside the trust. I also don't know the date the trust was formed and funded and the date of your mother's death. All that is important information to be able to answer those questions. Which is why I think your decision to make an appointment with an estate/trust attorney is a good one.
Thank you for your reply TM. Does the rate sound typical?
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Thank you for your reply TM. Does the rate sound typical?
Typical hourly rates for attorneys vary from one locality to another. In higher cost of living areas you can expect to pay more as the attorney has more in rent and maintenance for an office and higher living expenses (if the attorney practices solo) or if the attorney is employed by a firm the firm will have to pay more to get the attorney to compensate for the cost of living. It will depend on the experience and skill of the lawyer. But $375/hour is in the higher part of that range where I currently practice. I'm not in San Francisco, New York City, or Washington DC (not anymore); in those kinds of cities with some of the highest costs of living and higest rents and operating costs for offices you'd see that fee as more common place. If you are in a very rural area and the attorney is practicing in a small town in your area, then the fee is probably too high. The average fees are now starting to move up, too, because of the higher inflation rate the country has had during the last 1-2 years now.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
TM, thanks for your reply. Area is decent, nice, but not necessarily affluent suburb of Cleveland, Ohio
Ok, then based on a survey by Attorney at Work (a private firm that provides a variety of information to lawyers) of typical hourly rates for small firm lawyers by state his fee might be a bit on the high side. The average fee in Ohio for 2020 was determined to be $223. Another survey by the Ohio Bar Association broke out fees by years of practice, with the rates rising as the attorney gets more experience. The average for a new lawyer was $200/hour and for attorneys with 20+ years of experience was $250/hour. As that survey was done five years ago those rates are likely a bit higher now.

But understand that since it's an average, there are lawyers with fees both lower and higher than that. Note too that government attorneys and attorneys for nonprofits tend to get paid less than the average, which is what helps bring the average down. They take the lower pay because of other benefits of working for the government or for a nonprofit.

I worked as an attorney for the IRS for a few years and made it to an attorney manager position and my pay when I left was about $130K. When I started working for IRS there was no Affordable Care Act (ACA, otherwise known as Obamacare) and the federal government had very good health coverage options at better rates through most major health insurers. That's the leverage that being a huge employer provides. The government also picked up 80% of the premium cost, which was significant. I have had an expensive uncurable condition for years and at that time had I left the government the pre-existing condition exclusion found in pretty much every policy back then would have left me without any coverage, exposing me to potentially huge medical debts. And that's if they'd agree to provide the insurace at all. That along with normal working hours (many attorneys in large firms end up working 60-80 hours a week), good sick and personal paid leave, and other benefits made it the right choice for me. I mention all this to illustrate why some competent attorneys work for less than the usual pay. The other benefits that aren't counted as salary can make it worthwhile. Plus, I got to do very advanced high level tax work every day , something that I now do less of as as a private lawyer. I mention all this to illustrate why some competent attorneys work for less than the usual pay. The other benefits that aren't counted as salary can make it worthwhile.

Note too, that the rate varies by practice area. The Attorneys at Work report showed average rates for trust attorneys in 2020 was $295-$320/ hour. Trust law ranks as as the speciality having the 7th highest rate in the state. Attorneys fees in OH have gone up every for all practice areas but one: tax law. Tax lawyers still rank #6 but they've dropped a few places as their rates go down as others go up. That's a trend seen in other states, too. As a tax lawyer myself that trend hits me right in the wallet. But trends change over time and hopefully tax law will see a pick up now that the pandemic is over and the economy starts overheating. :D

I can't tell you if the lawyer you consulted is worth $350/hour. It's a bit higher than the typical rates for trust lawyers in your state, but where you're located will make a difference. If you live in the Cincinnati, Columbus or Cleveland the rates will be higher, and if you are further out in a more remote area it'll be less. I hope the data I've supplied will be helpful as you look for attorneys.

Please note the following disclaimer: I am not an employee of FreeAdvice or have any financial relationships with Free Advice. The opinions shared in this post may or may not reflect the views of the site owners. The links I've included in this post were selected by me and the views of outside sites also may or may not reflect the views of this FreeAdvice. All information provided on the message boards of this site is general in nature and does not form an attorney-client relationship or provide advice upon which you can rely for your own legal issues. It is always best to consult a local attorney who practices in the area of law you need to get answers that you can trust as being reliable. I do not solicit or accept clients from these boards. I post here simply to help others understand the law a bit better.
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
Ok, then based on a survey by Attorney at Work (a private firm that provides a variety of information to lawyers) of typical hourly rates for small firm lawyers by state his fee might be a bit on the high side. The average fee in Ohio for 2020 was determined to be $223. Another survey by the Ohio Bar Association broke out fees by years of practice, with the rates rising as the attorney gets more experience. The average for a new lawyer was $200/hour and for attorneys with 20+ years of experience was $250/hour. As that survey was done five years ago those rates are likely a bit higher now.

But understand that since it's an average, there are lawyers with fees both lower and higher than that. Note too that government attorneys and attorneys for nonprofits tend to get paid less than the average, which is what helps bring the average down. They take the lower pay because of other benefits of working for the government or for a nonprofit.

I worked as an attorney for the IRS for a few years and made it to an attorney manager position and my pay when I left was about $130K. When I started working for IRS there was no Affordable Care Act (ACA, otherwise known as Obamacare) and the federal government had very good health coverage options at better rates through most major health insurers. That's the leverage that being a huge employer provides. The government also picked up 80% of the premium cost, which was significant. I have had an expensive uncurable condition for years and at that time had I left the government the pre-existing condition exclusion found in pretty much every policy back then would have left me without any coverage, exposing me to potentially huge medical debts. And that's if they'd agree to provide the insurace at all. That along with normal working hours (many attorneys in large firms end up working 60-80 hours a week), good sick and personal paid leave, and other benefits made it the right choice for me. I mention all this to illustrate why some competent attorneys work for less than the usual pay. The other benefits that aren't counted as salary can make it worthwhile. Plus, I got to do very advanced high level tax work every day , something that I now do less of as as a private lawyer. I mention all this to illustrate why some competent attorneys work for less than the usual pay. The other benefits that aren't counted as salary can make it worthwhile.

Note too, that the rate varies by practice area. The Attorneys at Work report showed average rates for trust attorneys in 2020 was $295-$320/ hour. Trust law ranks as as the speciality having the 7th highest rate in the state. Attorneys fees in OH have gone up every for all practice areas but one: tax law. Tax lawyers still rank #6 but they've dropped a few places as their rates go down as others go up. That's a trend seen in other states, too. As a tax lawyer myself that trend hits me right in the wallet. But trends change over time and hopefully tax law will see a pick up now that the pandemic is over and the economy starts overheating. :D

I can't tell you if the lawyer you consulted is worth $350/hour. It's a bit higher than the typical rates for trust lawyers in your state, but where you're located will make a difference. If you live in the Cincinnati, Columbus or Cleveland the rates will be higher, and if you are further out in a more remote area it'll be less. I hope the data I've supplied will be helpful as you look for attorneys.

Please note the following disclaimer: I am not an employee of FreeAdvice or have any financial relationships with Free Advice. The opinions shared in this post may or may not reflect the views of the site owners. The links I've included in this post were selected by me and the views of outside sites also may or may not reflect the views of this FreeAdvice. All information provided on the message boards of this site is general in nature and does not form an attorney-client relationship or provide advice upon which you can rely for your own legal issues. It is always best to consult a local attorney who practices in the area of law you need to get answers that you can trust as being reliable. I do not solicit or accept clients from these boards. I post here simply to help others understand the law a bit better.
 
TM, thank you for the reply. What we did find was that it was kind of hard to find an Estate Attorney. First two we called didn't call back, a next one did but then didn't want the job, told us he'd have to charge us 1000s and someone else would be cheaper. Then we found the current one who responded timely and had the consultation. Thank you for all the info, very informative and helpful. -Chris
 
Last edited:

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
I'm glad you were able to find an attorney for the consultation you wanted and that you found the info I provided helpful. Hopefully the rest of the trust process goes smoothly for you.
 
There was one detail (question) I inadvertently left out. The Estate Attorney we're working with said there was a %4.5 charge to incoming coming into the estate either above or below 100k. I thought it was above 100k, something has come up that they're saying below. Either way, is this a normal thing? I'm in ohio, is this a probate directive thing?
 

Taxing Matters

Overtaxed Member
There was one detail (question) I inadvertently left out. The Estate Attorney we're working with said there was a %4.5 charge to incoming coming into the estate either above or below 100k. I thought it was above 100k, something has come up that they're saying below. Either way, is this a normal thing? I'm in ohio, is this a probate directive thing?
In many states the attorney's fees for probate are often a percentage of the decedent's assets. While Ohio statute only specifies that a fee be reasonable, it appears that it is common practice, at least in Hamiliton County, for the fee schedule to be as follows:

The first $50,000 in assets in are charged a fee at a rate of 5.5%. The next $50,000 in assets results in a fee for those assets of 4.5%. Then the assets over 50,000 up to $400,000 result in a fee of at the rate of 3.5%. Any assets in excess of $400,000 will result in a fee for that excess of 2.5%. An attorney may also charge a one percent fee for handling assets not subject to probate. Hamilton county probate court has an online calculator you can use to figure out what the fee would be for a given amount of estate assets.

Some attorneys will instead charge a fee at a flat hourly rate for the work done for the estate, e.g. $350/hour or whatever the attorney and client agree to.
 
In many states the attorney's fees for probate are often a percentage of the decedent's assets. While Ohio statute only specifies that a fee be reasonable, it appears that it is common practice, at least in Hamiliton County, for the fee schedule to be as follows:

The first $50,000 in assets in are charged a fee at a rate of 5.5%. The next $50,000 in assets results in a fee for those assets of 4.5%. Then the assets over 50,000 up to $400,000 result in a fee of at the rate of 3.5%. Any assets in excess of $400,000 will result in a fee for that excess of 2.5%. An attorney may also charge a one percent fee for handling assets not subject to probate. Hamilton county probate court has an online calculator you can use to figure out what the fee would be for a given amount of estate assets.

Some attorneys will instead charge a fee at a flat hourly rate for the work done for the estate, e.g. $350/hour or whatever the attorney and client agree to.
Thanks Taxing Matters, really appreciate the reply
 

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