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Fairfax formula with 2 full time jobs

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Hamptonacres

Junior Member
VA law. I live in Virginia, working two full time jobs and have been doing so for 7 years and I'm tired. My wife wants a divorce. I've visited a lawyer and was given a Fairfax formula with the dollar amounts I will need to pay for alimony and child support. We have 4 kids. My question is this: Will I get locked into this dollar amount forever?...i.e., the alimony component. I need to cut back on working so many hours and my wife is now accustomed to a certain life style which was not our goal when I started working two jobs. My wife is able body and has job skills, but she hasn't worked these past 7 years. We've been married 16 years. How will this play out?
 


mistoffolees

Senior Member
VA law. I live in Virginia, working two full time jobs and have been doing so for 7 years and I'm tired. My wife wants a divorce. I've visited a lawyer and was given a Fairfax formula with the dollar amounts I will need to pay for alimony and child support. We have 4 kids. My question is this: Will I get locked into this dollar amount forever?...i.e., the alimony component. I need to cut back on working so many hours and my wife is now accustomed to a certain life style which was not our goal when I started working two jobs. My wife is able body and has job skills, but she hasn't worked these past 7 years. We've been married 16 years. How will this play out?
Once alimony and child support are set, they do not change unless you can convince a judge that there is a significant change in circumstances. However, neither one typically goes on forever.

If the numbers are extremely high, then you need a good attorney working with you. My ex asked for a ridiculous amount of alimony and we eventually agreed on about 1/3 of what she was asking for. You can ask for income to be imputed to her, although they'll typically set that level quite low unless she's in a high paying profession.
 

smr36

Junior Member
cut back prior

you need to cut back on the 2 jobs well in advance. they typically go on gross, and they will count both jobs. you can always go back later to modify. most states its cut and dry. percentage of total gross pay. anytime there is a changein income you can ask it to be modified. remember it can work both ways
 

Ohiogal

Queen Bee
you need to cut back on the 2 jobs well in advance. they typically go on gross, and they will count both jobs. you can always go back later to modify. most states its cut and dry. percentage of total gross pay. anytime there is a changein income you can ask it to be modified. remember it can work both ways
KNOCK IT OFF> Quit quit quit. Do not give advice. If the OP cuts back on his income well in advance, he will be considered voluntarily underemployed. He will be imputed with the income he is able to make. YOU need to shut up and quit giving your improper illegal advice. If anyone listens to you they can find themselves in deep trouble.
 

Hamptonacres

Junior Member
My lawyer did concur with Ohiogal. I just can't get over the fact that the courts would expect me to work 2 full time jobs forever.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
My lawyer did concur with Ohiogal. I just can't get over the fact that the courts would expect me to work 2 full time jobs forever.
Forever? You're paying spousal support forever?

The courts try to maintain the status quo. If the two of you have a lifestyle with certain income levels and work hours, there is a presumption of that continuing for some period of time.

I would keep my resume out there to see if you can find one job which would be sufficient to pay your obligations. Keep in mind that if you quit the other job, you are still responsible for your obligations. Note that a single job doesn't need to pay as much as both jobs put together. There are additional costs for having the second job (child care, meals away from home, travel expenses, clothing, etc). Depending on circumstances, even a 10-20% increase in wages from the primary job might be enough to allow you to quit the second job. In any event, you certainly don't need a 100% increase. Or, is overtime available on the first job? Even a modest amount of overtime might obviate the need for the second job.
 

curiousB

Junior Member
My lawyer did concur with Ohiogal. I just can't get over the fact that the courts would expect me to work 2 full time jobs forever.

This was pretty much a slam dunk for my brother who was quite a work-a-holic for a time. Basically go to a doctor and get the doctor to write out all the medical reasons why working 2 full time jobs is unhealthy and what specific health problems it's causing you. Go to a pyschologist as well, there are a lot of mental conditions that are well documented when a person is overworked, over stressed, and is not getting enough sleep which are common problems to working two full time jobs. Then you have a bullet proof medical foundation for qutting a job.

Just as one guy to another: don't over work yourself like that. Life is too short to spend it working and no amount of money is worth it. The first time my brother described the experience of passing a kidney stone I swore I'd never work more than 50 hours a week. It's been great: I feel better, I lost 18 pounds in the first two months, I saw more films and read more books in the first three months than I had in the prior three years, and rarely get angry anymore. I stopped forgetting things, which had become a common problem for me. First couple of months after working normal hours you'll see a dramatic improvement in your mood and outlook on life.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
My lawyer did concur with Ohiogal. I just can't get over the fact that the courts would expect me to work 2 full time jobs forever.
Actually, I don't think that the courts WILL expect you to continue to work two full time jobs forever, nor do I think that its likely that you will be locked into permanent alimony either.

However, realistically it is a strategic problem if your income suddenly drops at the same time that you are in the midst of a divorce. That's the kind of thing that gets you imputed an income.
 

Hamptonacres

Junior Member
I wanted to follow-up with my initial post to let everyone know what has transpired since. My wife and I have now been almost seperated for 1 year now (living separately). The courts did grant my wife "temporary" spousal and child support based upon my two jobs. In fact, the judge told me that if I had quit one job or do quit 1 job that I would still have to pay my wife the court ordered amount regardless (transputed income). So, I'm literally an indentured servent, more like a slave to the "Entitled One" (my endearing term for my soon to be Ex-wife). Go figure, I live in the Confederate capital of the CSA during the civil war (Richmond VA). During my child custody hearing (which was heard in a separate court case) my lawyer did try to get that judge to allow me to go to one job in order to spend more time with my kids etc. This was still Family courts. That case lasted 3 hours as we poured over court cases. The judge denied my motion based upon a court in in 1992 (1993?) Cochran vs Cochran in which the VA supreme court ordered the man to continue working two full time jobs. I can appeal the case with the Circuit courts. So, when my lawyer and family and everyone else who knows me says that "No judge will ever court order a person to work two full time jobs" then think again. They will and do...at least in VA. Part of the problem with VA law is that VA courts have not defined what "full potential" means. Some states, and even the country of France states that full potential is a 40 hour work week. Because I had been and was working 80 hours per week, then the courts viewed that was my full potential. Crock of crap if you ask me. Logically that is crazy thinking because everyone can work 2 or 3 jobs if forced to. Not once did the courts look at what my wifes full potential was or could be. Anyway, I will try to follow-up to this posting as the "contested" divorce proceeds.
 

mistoffolees

Senior Member
I wanted to follow-up with my initial post to let everyone know what has transpired since. My wife and I have now been almost seperated for 1 year now (living separately). The courts did grant my wife "temporary" spousal and child support based upon my two jobs. In fact, the judge told me that if I had quit one job or do quit 1 job that I would still have to pay my wife the court ordered amount regardless (transputed income). So, I'm literally an indentured servent, more like a slave to the "Entitled One" (my endearing term for my soon to be Ex-wife). Go figure, I live in the Confederate capital of the CSA during the civil war (Richmond VA). During my child custody hearing (which was heard in a separate court case) my lawyer did try to get that judge to allow me to go to one job in order to spend more time with my kids etc. This was still Family courts. That case lasted 3 hours as we poured over court cases. The judge denied my motion based upon a court in in 1992 (1993?) Cochran vs Cochran in which the VA supreme court ordered the man to continue working two full time jobs. I can appeal the case with the Circuit courts. So, when my lawyer and family and everyone else who knows me says that "No judge will ever court order a person to work two full time jobs" then think again. They will and do...at least in VA. Part of the problem with VA law is that VA courts have not defined what "full potential" means. Some states, and even the country of France states that full potential is a 40 hour work week. Because I had been and was working 80 hours per week, then the courts viewed that was my full potential. Crock of crap if you ask me. Logically that is crazy thinking because everyone can work 2 or 3 jobs if forced to. Not once did the courts look at what my wifes full potential was or could be. Anyway, I will try to follow-up to this posting as the "contested" divorce proceeds.
The court is not actually ordering you to work two jobs. They're simply saying that you will have to pay alimony based on the amount you earned. It's not quite the same thing.

As someone suggested, if there are medical reasons why you are unable to work two jobs, that might be relevant. Also, if there is some CHILD-BASED reason for you to be able to spend more time with your kids, that will be relevant. That is, you should not be arguing that YOU want to spend more time with the kids. Rather, you should be arguing that it's in the children's best interests - based on numerous studies that show that kids of divorce do much better with both parents in their lives.

There is one error in your post - stating that the court will not consider income from her. That is not correct. Courts will almost always impute income to one spouse even if they're not working. If she has any sellable skills, that might be a significant number. If she doesn't, then they might only impute minimum wage, but they will usually impute something if you wish.

You didn't respond to my comment about this not going on forever. What is your attorney telling you for how long you're going to be paying alimony? It doesn't usually go on forever unless there's some unusual circumstance. Specifically, how long were you married?

You might consider an appeal, but it's likely to be a waste of money. Judges have a great deal of discretion and unless they're clearly violating the law, it's hard to win an appeal on a case like this. Better to focus on reasons why the judge should use his discretion differently than he is.

The one small silver lining is that court-ordered alimony is deductible on your taxes.
 

Hamptonacres

Junior Member
The semantics of me being court ordered to work two full time jobs is indeed accurate. Why else am I being ordered to pay that amount if it wasn't for the two jobs I hold? I see what you are saying, that it is only the dollar amount that they are looking at, but how else would I pay that amount if I didn't keep working the two jobs? The courts may look at the dollar amount, but I'm looking at it as being forced to work two full time jobs to pay that amount. So should the courts.

During my last court case the Family court Judge didn't care if I get to see my kids or not. My lawyer did indeed argue that me reducing to one job was essential to be able to be with my children more. The courts could care less. The judge said he was empathetic to my case, but said he had to rule based on prior cases only. So, the child-based strategy didn't hold water. I have since read numerous citings of how fathers keep getting pushed further and further away from their kids after/during divorce. My case is an example of that.

Spousal support going on forever...no one has ever addressed this issue in any of my court cases. All the judges seem to be concerned with so far is what I'm doing. My wife worked for 12 years prior to coming to VA and then became a stay at home mom while I continued to work my one-job at that time. It wasn't until our house back in Illinois didn't sell that I was forced to take a second job to make ends meet. At that point when the house did sell that I told my wife that I would only do this for 5 years max. She agreed, but then when the 5 years were up she cried around telling me how selfish I was for wanting to quit and having to move the kids out of the house they grew up in (was only in the house for 3 years at that point). We couln't afford the house we were living in on my one salary. Of course she didn't want to go back to work. Not once did she ever say she wanted me home with her and the kids. Me working two jobs became a way of life for her, but violated all agreements we had. So, no one has told me for how long she would get spousal support. Divorce hasn't been filed yet. Need 1 year separation...June 10th is the magic date. We were married 18 years...17 years with 1 year separation. She isn't Stephen Hawking, and is perfectly able to get and hold a job. She was a Pharmacy Technician and is very employable.

I concur with the appeal thought. My lawyer thinks the judge errored in not granting me the right to reduce to one job. He thinks we should appeal it, but my concern is that the appealate courts will rule the same as the family courts based on past case histories with the VA supreme courts (Cochran vs Cochran). Seems like a waste of time and money. My lawyer did say that the Circuit courts won't allow the reduction in child/spousal support unless there is a reduction in income. My fear is that if I quit one job that they won't grant it anyway and then I'll be forced to scramble looking for an extra job again and if not, will end up in jail for contempt of court for not being able to pay the amount of money awarded (Fairfax formula). Maybe going to jail might be a good thing?
 

Hamptonacres

Junior Member
Final follow-up

I wanted to post my last thread to all of this. My wife and I are finally divorced. It occurred Sept. 10, 2012. It took me almost 3 years to save enough money to hire a lawyer. For the record it was me that filed for the divorce. She had it made in the shade and wasn't about to file. Why should she? "Temporary" spousal support in VA could last forever until the party providing it (me) is able to file. Most reasonable folks cooperate and file, but not the bitch I was married to. Can you say Gold digger? She was that and more. The only good thing that came out of the marriage were our kids. In the end, she got a huge "monetary award" to equalize the marital debt and she got spousal support for 1/2 the length of the marriage (8 years). I have no issue with child support but I do with spousal support. So now she's collecting a huge check from me each month and she finally got off of her fat butt and working. What gets me is that I have an advanced degree, spent years in college to earn it, but I don't get the life style that I went to school for. She never cracked a college text in her life but is living like she went to Harvard. Is that fair? Is it? Our American culture continually wants to take from those who do and give to those who are too lazy to do. I'm not talking about taking from the rich and giving to the poor.....I grew up dirt poor but worked my ass off to get out of the cycle, only to have a court think that taking from me and giving to her is fair. I don't. It's immoral and unethical. Moral of the story. If you are a man, living in Virginia, do not, I repeat, do not file for divorce if your lazy ass wife isn't working, and never, ever work two full time jobs. Life is too short and you'll get "screwed in the end." Take this last part however you see fit.
 

Proserpina

Senior Member
I wanted to post my last thread to all of this. My wife and I are finally divorced. It occurred Sept. 10, 2012. It took me almost 3 years to save enough money to hire a lawyer. For the record it was me that filed for the divorce. She had it made in the shade and wasn't about to file. Why should she? "Temporary" spousal support in VA could last forever until the party providing it (me) is able to file. Most reasonable folks cooperate and file, but not the bitch I was married to. Can you say Gold digger? She was that and more. The only good thing that came out of the marriage were our kids. In the end, she got a huge "monetary award" to equalize the marital debt and she got spousal support for 1/2 the length of the marriage (8 years). I have no issue with child support but I do with spousal support. So now she's collecting a huge check from me each month and she finally got off of her fat butt and working. What gets me is that I have an advanced degree, spent years in college to earn it, but I don't get the life style that I went to school for. She never cracked a college text in her life but is living like she went to Harvard. Is that fair? Is it? Our American culture continually wants to take from those who do and give to those who are too lazy to do. I'm not talking about taking from the rich and giving to the poor.....I grew up dirt poor but worked my ass off to get out of the cycle, only to have a court think that taking from me and giving to her is fair. I don't. It's immoral and unethical. Moral of the story. If you are a man, living in Virginia, do not, I repeat, do not file for divorce if your lazy ass wife isn't working, and never, ever work two full time jobs. Life is too short and you'll get "screwed in the end." Take this last part however you see fit.

At least it'll all be over in 8 years.

It could've been permanent :eek:

Thanks for the update, though.
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
The information given above is slightly wrong. First off, if the alimony and child support are set in a property agreement separate from the court, you'll have to see if there is an annual recomputation of the amounts provided for in the document (typically there are). If not, you're very screwed and you'll need a lawyer.

If the Judge set the alimony and the child support as part of the divorce decree (and didn't provide for a periodic adjustment), you can just petition the court to adjust it. You can do that yourself, but it would behoove you to have a lawyer.

The courts don't tend to stray from the formulas in a contested amount. They'll just reapply it based on last years tax info typically.
 

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