False advertising regarding home wiring

[mrazy]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Iowa
We purchased a house three months ago. Recently we discovered that none of the house is wired through the breaker box (with possibly the exception of the heating and air). The house is still using old knob and tube wiring.
The ad actually stated, “100-amp breaker box,” included, which the home does have. We had the home inspected; the only warning about the breaker box was it was not well labeled (hard to read). (Interestingly, the box is very specifically labeled: main floor, stove, refrigerator, basement, etc., none of which are true.)
I’m not looking to sue, but we bought the house on the premise that it didn’t have 70-year-old wiring.
I’m guessing the realtor, just like us and the inspector saw a breaker box and assumed it was functioning. I will write a letter to the real estate agent about the misleading information.
My questions to you lovelies are these: I purchased the house “as is”; does that mean we don’t have a fight regarding the false advertising? And if so, do I ask the inspector for a refund?
Assuming I do have legal standing, what is my ultimate goal? The cost to have the house actually rewired? A percentage of the sale amount returned? Something else?
TIA!

 

[FlyingRon]

Real estate listings are almost always disclaimed about being accurate. Homes are sold as-is. You're expected to do the requisite due diligence and not rely on the listings.
If your home inspector got it wrong, most likely the MOST you'd be able to reclaim is your inspection fee. Their inspections are also sufficiently weasel worded to not have any liability. Any defect not visually apparent from their walk around probably isn't even going to get you that. If you had concerns on the wiring you need someone with a clue (an electrician with specific knowledge of older houses), not some jack-of-all-trades master-of-none home inspector.

You're not going to get anything else unless you can show the seller knew of a defect and failed to make a required disclosure. Properly fitted knob-and-tube and smaller than what is today's average services is NOT a defect anyhow. You may not find it desirable, but it's not a defect.

Guess what "as is" means?

 

[mrazy]

Yes, your response was what I feared. I understand the point of AS-IS, but is there no recourse? Under that logic, they could sell it saying it came with a brand new washer and dryer, when in truth it has a doll house toy washer and dryer. You see?
I believe we did do our due diligence by hiring an inspector, and we had no concerns about the wiring, as we too saw the breaker box and assumed it was, you know, real.
I absolutely believe the seller knew about the breaker box. Does he have any responsibility - at the very least to have it not posted on the ad as a selling point?
The realtor and his son both pointed out the breaker box to us, and how it was up to code - this was hard selling point for them.
Thank you for your response.

 

[FlyingRon]

No. Advertisements are meaningless in real estate. The rules are different than if you were guying something at retail.

As for the breaker box, I'm failing to see what the defect is. Your misunderstanding on what the OCD in the panel means is not a defect. Nobody reported to you that the house had 100 am service, and 60A or whatever you do have in older houses is hardly a defect. In fact, the current code REQUIRES a least a 100AMP rated service disconnect no matter WHAT the size of the incoming service actually is. What you have is what the law specifically requires.

 

[mrazy]

I'm not following you. I am very aware that my electricity knowledge is close to nil, so the OCD comment is lost on me.
They did, in fact, report a 100 amp service, in the ad, and in person - twice. My problem is that nothing is hooked up to it. The house is truly wired to a completely different box in a different room.

Let me dumb it down, in hopes that you will find the flaw in my logic and in return dumb it down for me.
Realtor: Look at this fancy new breaker box, all of your wiring is here and up to code.
Truth: Here is a breaker box, nothing is truly wired to it, your electricity is wired to something, in another room, older than your grandmother.

 

[Zigner]

I'm not following you. I am very aware that my electricity knowledge is close to nil, so the OCD comment is lost on me.
They did, in fact, report a 100 amp service, in the ad, and in person - twice. My problem is that nothing is hooked up to it. The house is truly wired to a completely different box in a different room.

Let me dumb it down, in hopes that you will find the flaw in my logic and in return dumb it down for me.
Realtor: Look at this fancy new breaker box, all of your wiring is here and up to code.
Truth: Here is a breaker box, nothing is truly wired to it, your electricity is wired to something, in another room, older than your grandmother.

The breaker box probably is up to code.

Why didn't the inspector make a note about the other breaker box?

 

[FlyingRon]

OCD = OverCurrent Device (circuit breaker).

No they appear to have NOT made any representations about the SERVICE. The SERVICE is the wires that come from the power company to the building. What they represented is that they had a 100A disconnect in the panel. This is WHAT IS REQUIRED under current code whether it is a 60A service or a 100A service. Advertisements and verbal representations mean squat in real estate purposes. The fact that you 1. put reliance on them and 2. misunderstood what was being represented doesn't change things.

I'm not seeing any case here. If you want, go get a lawyer who will have a professional electrician rather than a home inspection stooge determine if there is defect here and whether there is any actionable duty for the seller to have told you otherwise.

 

[mrazy]

I assume that the inspector didn't mention the old box because, he like us, thought it was just a remnant of the old wiring, not that it was still live.

Obviously, my ignorance of electricity is my problem. I do not understand how a breaker box can be up to code, if it's not attached to anything. To me, that's like saying the plumbing is up to code, but it's not hooked up to the water supply.

I do appreciate your time and comments. I'd rather hash out my stupidity with you, than to unnecessarily anger the realtor.

 

[mrazy]

Just in case my ignorance isn't blatantly clear, I have one more request for clarification. You said,

What they represented is that they had a 100A disconnect in the panel.

If I understand that correctly, when I switched off every breaker, the power should turn off (disconnect) in the house. It didn't. We had to pull out the fuse box thing from the knob and tube box to shut off power in the house (just wanted to rewire a light switch).

 

[FlyingRon]

Just in case my ignorance isn't blatantly clear, I have one more request for clarification. You said,
If I understand that correctly, when I switched off every breaker, the power should turn off (disconnect) in the house. It didn't. We had to pull out the fuse box thing from the knob and tube box to shut off power in the house (just wanted to rewire a light switch).

Again, there's not necessarily anything wrong with this. THere is required to be a service disconnect (SOMEWHERE) near where the power has entered the house.

You're guessing and grasping at straws that somehow there as some defect here that's going to get you some money.

As near as I can tell there is no defect and hence nothing that required disclosure.

Again, my advice is the same

You need both LEGAL help and someone who knows their posterior from a hole in the ground with regard to electricity.

 

[mrazy]

Ok. Thank you. I'll admit defeat now, and talk to an electrician. I appreciate your time responding to my messages.

 

[FarmerJ]

Saying the house had a 100 amp service was not misleading and you could have directed your home inspector in writing to be alot more thorough than they were by making part of the agreement that you were to be told of in report form about old wiring or work that looked like it needed further inspection but you didnt do that , SO heres the deal , have you checked your city /county permit desk to learn for sure if there was a permit filed for this work and who signed off on it ? ( if somewhere this seller used any wording that said totally re wired -all wiring has been upgraded etc then you might have a chance going after the seller)

 

[LdiJ]

Ok. Thank you. I'll admit defeat now, and talk to an electrician. I appreciate your time responding to my messages.

Honestly?...I would at least pay for 30 minutes of a real estate attorney's time before admitting defeat. I am not saying that the others are not correct, but your situation is just enough outside of the norm that a consult with a local real estate attorney really would be in order.

However, I also absolutely agree that you need to talk to an electrician. You really don't know if the situation is a problem/hazard or not. To be honest, what it sounds like to me is that the former homeowners were having some problems, and added the new breaker box and switched the items that drew the most electricity to the new box, and left the items drawing the least amount of electricity to the old box. That is actually not an uncommon way to deal with issues like that...particularly if the old wiring is still sound.

 

[FarmerJ]

That old box should have had a disconnect in the new panel so when you said you had to go to the old one to turn things off the old one should have shut off when you shut off breakers in the new so this is why I say to go to inspections to learn if there was a permit , & who signed off on it. THEN after you have a electrician out to evaluate it yes I agree with LDIJ about getting a consult w atty , it wont hurt.

 

[mrazy]

Thanks for the input, guys!

First, I can almost guarantee there was never a permit pulled for it (but, I could be wrong). But, that's neither here nor there, as rewiring, or any mention of the wiring, was not in the final contract, so the seller isn't liable there.

I don't know that we dropped the ball by not explicitly telling the inspector the inspect the breaker box. In fact, there were many electrical issues that he informed us of (just not this).

it sounds like to me is that the former homeowners were having some problems, and added the new breaker box and switched the items that drew the most electricity to the new box, and left the items drawing the least amount of electricity to the old box.

This helps a lot - I understand now that this is probable, rather than someone trying to swindle me.

What I'm hearing from all of you is that I completely misunderstood the wiring setup (no surprise) and that I should consider consulting an attorney anyway.

Thank you.