For LL's: Who has the burden of proof on newley bought property?

[cabanks27]

Excuse me? When did I offend you BL? I haven't deleted any of my responses, and I joined in June of this year for the first time.

 

[tranquility]

I stand by my response.

You may stand where you will. However, when you give bad advice to others, you will be called on it. Such as now.

 

[cabanks27]

Fair enough. But you have to understand that when you act like an arrogant jerk, I will call you out on that. I do not post on the Tax Law forum, because I know nothing about that. But I do know Landlord Tenant Law. You and I disagree on this issue. No need for the "Seniors" to bully me. Let's just wait and see the outcome of Papa's case, and apologize accordingly. Deal?

 

[tranquility]

Actually, now that papa has received proper advice he may have a chance. Rather than show up in court with nothing, he may now actually try to bring in evidence which will prove up the elements he needs to prove up to win. No thanks to you.

 

[cabanks27]

You have got to be kidding me. I did not advise him to go in without evidence! I advised that he show proof of the damages and the cost of such repairs, but let the burden of proof of the move in condition fall to the tenant.

 

[BL]

Excuse me? When did I offend you BL? I haven't deleted any of my responses, and I joined in June of this year for the first time.

https://forum.freeadvice.com/landlord-tenant-issues-42/can-i-get-my-deposit-back-436003.html

Well then it was edited by the moderator .

Wonder why ?

 

[cabanks27]

I still don't see where I stated anything inappropriate. Or is your testimony evidence of that?

 

[papashaq]

Actually, now that papa has received proper advice he may have a chance. Rather than show up in court with nothing, he may now actually try to bring in evidence which will prove up the elements he needs to prove up to win. No thanks to you.

I am going to get affidavits from the other tenants as to the condition of their unit when they moved in...but what's the best way of doing this? I was going to write up a questionnaire and have them fill it out and sign it. Does this have to be notarized or will their signature suffice? What else could i bring in? I was thinking of bringing in my 2 other itemized security deposit return from 2 other tenants that moved out and I didn't have to charge them for simialr damages.

I obiously cannot bring in the owner that started the lease with the plaintiff becasue he is dead, and she said she is bringing in the dad that took over until the sale to testify on her behalf. Which I don't know what good that will do, since she signed with his son 2 years before he took over, and I am sure he wasn't there to witness the move in condition.

 

[cabanks27]

Sorry Papa, I won't advise you anymore. If I say anything that a senior member does not agree with, I am attacked and "reported" to the moderator apparently.

 

[tranquility]

I am going to get affidavits from the other tenants as to the condition of their unit when they moved in...but what's the best way of doing this? I was going to write up a questionnaire and have them fill it out and sign it.

That was MIRAKLES suggestion. I'm not sure of the probative value of the condition of the other units on move in. It might be enough, but it might not. Testimony (perhaps through affidavit) from others that *all* units were good on rental or, better, that unit was good on rental would be better. Or from the manager or someone else with direct knowledge of the status of that unit when possession was transferred.

I was going to write up a questionnaire and have them fill it out and sign it. Does this have to be notarized or will their signature suffice?

You need to look up the rules for affidavits, but this questionnaire is not going to be admissible without more.

What else could i bring in? I was thinking of bringing in my 2 other itemized security deposit return from 2 other tenants that moved out and I didn't have to charge them for simialr damages.

Similar problem. Their units are not the issue, the tenant's is.


Look, you have a hard case. Bring in what you can to prove damage during possession. Any proof may be enough to sway the judge if the tenant seems untruthful. The real answer is an inspection should have been done when you purchased the property. Then you could have reduced the amount paid at that time (and the then owner get compensation from the tenant) or have proof the unit was good at that time. Fixing mistakes in court can be hard sometime.

 

[tranquility]

You have got to be kidding me. I did not advise him to go in without evidence! I advised that he show proof of the damages and the cost of such repairs, but let the burden of proof of the move in condition fall to the tenant.

Since there is no such burden, that is why you are wrong and should not have posted. By advising the OP to rely on a burden of proof which was in error, he would not bring in evidence on that element which he has to prove. Thus making sure he would lose in any fair court.

 

[MIRAKALES]

It seems that all of the units were is good condition at move-in based upon current apartment conditions. LL’s settlement statements provided to other tenants were all within reason and without dispute. There were no claims of pre-existing apartment damage with the exception of this ONE particular tenant. In a civil dispute the preponderance of evidence is the requirement for proof. LL should request a Property Inspection Report from all tenants to confirm current condition of each apartment. LL should obtain a professional Move-In/Out Property Inspection Report and review the tenant's apartment THOROUGHLY to ensure that all damages are noted.

The general presumption is that premises are in good and habitable condition at move-in. Rely on the overall good condition of entire premises to discredit tenant’s claims. Support that disposition with the fact the tenant is citing damaged, broken, missing and unclean items which are ALWAYS the result of the tenant actions.

Evidence will and can be located to confirm the true condition of the apartment at move-in IF LL searches for information in past records (accounting, billing, contractors, court, leases, taxes, etc.) and from former tenants and repairmen familiar with the premises. In the future, to avoid conflicts at move-out, take photographs prior to move-in and obtain Property Move-In Inspection Report signed by tenant to confirm property condition.

 

[tranquility]

It seems that all of the units were is good condition at move-in based upon current apartment conditions.

I agree that evidence the previous landlord behaved in a good faith and businesslike manner regarding the condition of the apartments would be enough to shift the burden to the tenant.

There were no claims of pre-existing apartment damage with the exception of this ONE particular tenant.

Statistics are not evidence unless an expert presents them and offers his opinion on how it would apply to this situation.

LL should request a Property Inspection Report from all tenants to confirm current condition of each apartment.

This is a great idea to help prevent problems like this in the future.

The general presumption is that premises are in good and habitable condition at move-in.

Habitable? Maybe, I'd have to check to be sure. Good? No way. Do you have a citation to that effect?

Rely on the overall good condition of entire premises to discredit tenant’s claims.

Not good enough. Rely on proof the former landlord behaved in a good faith and businesslike manner and that he had a procedure or business practice to keep the apartments sound and in good repair on move in.

Support that disposition with the fact the tenant is citing damaged, broken, missing and unclean items which are ALWAYS the result of the tenant actions.

Two things. The first is that this is not true. Maybe often, but not always. The second is that it would be opinion evidence and the OP would need an expert to present it. What tenants do is not admissible. What this tenant did or how this landlord behaved is.

Evidence will and can be located to confirm the true condition of the apartment at move-in IF LL searches for information in past records (accounting, billing, contractors, court, leases, taxes, etc.) and from former tenants and repairmen familiar with the premises.

Great suggestion.

 

[Who's Liable?]

But -- we have no evidence of that, we just have your testimony

I demand PHOTOGRAPHIC proof! Something that highlights the female curves, like a bikini or such item. I will need to review these photos in my private chambers before I can make a ruling!

 

[ecmst12]

If testimony was not evidence, then an eye witness to a crime would be of no value to a prosecutor. Think about what you're saying before you hit the post button, people.

Now the tenant saying 'but it was like that when I moved in' may not be particularly credible, but if LL does not have SOMETHING to refute it, that is what the judge will have to accept since it will be the only evidence presented. And I mentioned before that WI is extremely tenant friendly. So OP had better have something more then 'but she's lying' when it comes time for court.

If tenant is planning on calling the previous LL (original owner's dad) as a witness, you should talk to him first and find out what he's going to say.