Grandfather easement?

[PatchesII]

What is the name of your state? Ohio

I have to replace my septic system which has been in place since the home was built in 1950 (I'm the third owner). It has a pipe that flows from the septic tank to a creek located two properties away (about 700 feet) and the pipe goes through these two properties. I have searched the titles and see no deeded easement for the pipe.

#1 - Is there such a thing as a 'Grandfather' type easement since this pipe has been there and been in use for over fifty years? If so, what is the proper legal term?

#2 - If yes to #1, can I use such a thing to connect to a sewer that is located in the same vicinity as the creek outlet?

#3 - Can the neighbor legally dig up this existing pipe? (he has because he drove his truck over it and broke some of it).

#4 - The neighbor plans on installing a concrete driveway over this pipe pathway. Can he do this legally?

#5 - If I chose to go with a sandbed filter instead of a sewer connection, can I legally use the existing pipe to drain effluent to the creek? If so, is it the neighbor's responsibility to mainatin the pipe in his yard?

 

[FarmerJ]

If your going to get a new septic system and they do a mound style system you will not have any need at all of using that pipe for anything , and likely your septic tank installer will be required to cut and cap the old line , so you wont have any way to use it either . So your only concern may be what if the guy next door damages the old line well at this point since your planning on doing a new system I guess you ought to make sure you can find your settling tank (s) and have the phone number of local honeysuckers handy Incase the line is crushed and not repaired by the nieghbor , your going to need that number so you can have it pumped while your waiting for new system to be installed , ANY other questions you have regarding a easement through the other 2 parcels I suggest you try the links up top and look for a real estate atty in your area , likely one will give you a free or low cost consult in that matter .

 

[PatchesII]

Thank you for your reply. I have already had the tank pumped out and am using a port-a-potty to keep the raw sewage out of the system as the line has already been crushed and NOT repaired by the neighbor. In fact he has dug out that section of pipe and left an open air trench. This is one of my original questions. Is this legal for him to do?

Further, I have consulted with a local atty and all he was able to say was you might have a case. Geeze, I paid $50.00 to find out that I MIGHT have a case! This is why I am seeking advice on this site.

The county has recommended the mound system, but I have heard nothing but bad things about them as follows.

1- The system takes up most of my yard as I would still have a collection area, then pump a few hundred feet to the proposed mound site, then drain effluent down the valley in the center of my property.

2- They are "experimental" and last only about ten (10) years.

3- They are an eyesore and some neighbors have objected to the idea of having to look at that from their back yards.

4- Heavy rains will cause effluent to not be absorbed by the "mound" and run-off into the property.

5- They are very expensive.

These are comments I have gotten from three plumbers and an engineer. And once I mention the "mound" to prospective plumbers, I can't get them to call back again. This has also happened to a neighbor down the street from me. Plumbers themselves do not like the mound systems and are shying away from bidding on these systems. I have not heard one professional say these are excellent systems to have. This is why I would rather connect to the sewer and I have a recommendation for this alternative from an engineer. This solution eliminates any chance of anyone ever being exposed to effluent.

His second alternative is to install the sand bed filter after the septic tank. These have been proven to last about 30 to 40 years and do a far superior job of filtering. Then this effluent will be directed to the existing pipe and run to the creek (the same as the neihbors' is doing today). Therefore, I respectfully submit the same questions again.

#1 - Is there such a thing as a 'Grandfather' type easement since this pipe has been there and been in use for over fifty years? If so, what is the proper legal term?

#2 - If yes to #1, can I use such a thing to connect to a sewer that is located in the same vicinity as the creek outlet?

#3 - Can the neighbor legally dig up this existing pipe? (he has because he drove his truck over it and broke some of it).

#4 - The neighbor plans on installing a concrete driveway over this pipe pathway. Can he do this legally?

#5 - If I chose to go with a sandbed filter instead of a sewer connection, can I legally use the existing pipe to drain effluent to the creek? If so, is it the neighbor's responsibility to mainatin the pipe in his yard?

 

[FarmerJ]

Find a differnt atty do your self a favor search on this sites search tab on these 2 words > Prescriptive easement < If your homes septic tank pipe being run through the other 2 lots wasnt ever recorded you will have to have a atty help you sue for Prescriptive easement . NOW about the other things you mentioned , Mound systems fail because people still try to dump everything down the damn toilet , the more stuff you run down the sewer line the more stuff there is to help plug your system up . garbage disposals are EVIL with septic systems , and all that crapola on TV that says septic safe , HOGWASH how many years have they been flushing them toilet or floor cleaning things ?? not very long . Bleach and disinfectants well if you want to kill all the good bacteria in the tank i cannot think of a better way to do so with following what the adverts claim . Over loading , well even mound systems can only handle so much water at once so spreading out your laundry use is a good way to avoid blowing the hill .as well as ahving a water softener drain into a sump pump in basement rather than down the sewer line . I have seen homes here that have had mound systems for almost 20 years and havent had trouble with them .

 

[Souix]

Here in Oregon, if the property is located near a creek, stream or any kind of waterway, the State requires the Sand Filter System. These last but they are spendy. I think a new system is about $18,000 and up. As far as a "grandfathered easement", I have never heard that term. You might do a search for "easements" to help you determine which kind you have. In the meantime, I found an excellent site that can give you more information about septic system. It is: www.inspect.ny.com/septbook.htm

 

[PatchesII]

FarmerJ - you seem to be a big proponent of these mound systems, and I respect your comments about treating them with care by watching what one disposes of and metering the usage of dishwashers and clothes washers. You are the first I have heard that has seen these things operate with no problems. However, we have a larger family, and our dish washer and clothes washer run several loads per day, to say nothing of showers, baths, and toilet usage. In addition, they take up too much property and create an eyesore where my kids cannot play. And the most hard to swallow objection is the expense! at 25K to 30K, I'd much rather connect to a sewer and have a permanant/"clean" solution if at all possible. I DID do a search for "prescriptive easement" on this site, and I guess I'm not doing it right as the responses are that it can't be found. Other research has turned up the term "Adverse Priviledge" which means something to the effect of having a right of way without an "easement" per se. Maybe this is what I can use. I have also looked up some definitions in my County's Board of Health Rules and Regulations and found these two pertinent definitions.

PRIVATE DRAINAGE EASEMENTS:
An easement over existing water or drainage courses which extend over two or more adjacent lots, the owners of which are to be responsible for the maintenance of the courses.
DRAINAGE COURSE:
A system of well-defined natural or man-made facilities such as swales, valleys, streams, ponds, lakes, pipes, culverts, detention and/or retention basins to continuously or intermittently convey runoff.

Could I marry these two and say that I have a Private Drainage Easement since I have an existing drainage course?


Souix - Not sure if Oregon and Ohio have the same rules. I tried your site mentioned and it says the site cannot be found, but I have nothing against a sand filter system, with the exception that I prefer the sewer connection (for obvious reasons). If a sewer turns out to be a no go, then that is my second preferred choice. I'm not sure what they cost in my territory as I can't get a plumber to bid on anything until I have clear direction on what I plan to do. But my guess is that it has to be less expensive than the mound system proposed (25K to 30K).

 

[Souix]

FarmerJ - you seem to be a big proponent of these mound systems, and I respect your comments about treating them with care by watching what one disposes of and metering the usage of dishwashers and clothes washers. You are the first I have heard that has seen these things operate with no problems. However, we have a larger family, and our dish washer and clothes washer run several loads per day, to say nothing of showers, baths, and toilet usage. In addition, they take up too much property and create an eyesore where my kids cannot play. And the most hard to swallow objection is the expense! at 25K to 30K, I'd much rather connect to a sewer and have a permanant/"clean" solution if at all possible. I DID do a search for "prescriptive easement" on this site, and I guess I'm not doing it right as the responses are that it can't be found. Other research has turned up the term "Adverse Priviledge" which means something to the effect of having a right of way without an "easement" per se. Maybe this is what I can use. I have also looked up some definitions in my County's Board of Health Rules and Regulations and found these two pertinent definitions.

PRIVATE DRAINAGE EASEMENTS:
An easement over existing water or drainage courses which extend over two or more adjacent lots, the owners of which are to be responsible for the maintenance of the courses.
DRAINAGE COURSE:
A system of well-defined natural or man-made facilities such as swales, valleys, streams, ponds, lakes, pipes, culverts, detention and/or retention basins to continuously or intermittently convey runoff.

Could I marry these two and say that I have a Private Drainage Easement since I have an existing drainage course?


Souix - Not sure if Oregon and Ohio have the same rules. I tried your site mentioned and it says the site cannot be found, but I have nothing against a sand filter system, with the exception that I prefer the sewer connection (for obvious reasons). If a sewer turns out to be a no go, then that is my second preferred choice. I'm not sure what they cost in my territory as I can't get a plumber to bid on anything until I have clear direction on what I plan to do. But my guess is that it has to be less expensive than the mound system proposed (25K to 30K).

***Awesome, you are doing your own research. Have you tried calling a title officer to see what type of easements are on your property or the property that your drainfields are located on? There may be something recorded on their property that you are unaware of, or there could be something mentioned on your Deed. All I know is its not a good idea to build anything over drainfields or grow a vegetable garden.***

 

[PatchesII]

Souix - Yes, I've been doing a lot of reaserch on my own. As mentioned in my original questions, I have already done a thorough deed/title search on all the properties involved and have not found a written easement (still have to check with the Engineer's office though). Hence the questions about a "grandfather" easement. I have found (as prompted by FarmerJ) in other research that there is such a thing, but the legal terms are "Adverse Possession" and "Prescriptive Easement". Just type either of those terms in a search bar (I used Google) to find more detail, but from what I read, it seems that if you use property for over a certain amount of time, even without a written easement, you gain rights to the property (Adverse Possession), or at least get to use the property and repair pipes and such (Prescriptive Easement). Since this pipe has been in existance and used for over 21 years (Ohio Law), I can possibly claim one or both of these easements since mine has been in use for over fifty years!.

So I seem to have answered my own original questions #'s 1,2,&5. That leaves #'s 3&4 which I will copy and paste here again.

#3 - Can the neighbor legally dig up this existing pipe? (he has because he drove his truck over it and broke some of it).

#4 - The neighbor plans on installing a concrete driveway over this pipe pathway. Can he do this legally?

 

[FarmerJ]

Patch I have been working for a group home firm that houses developmentally disabled adults , what they call the White house has had 8 adult males 2 who are urinary incontinent and 2 who were bowel incontinent , they have 2 clothes washers and 2 dryers and 2 dishwashers the dish washers are each run 2 times a day and there is easily 6 to 10 loads of wash daily with showers for all . 4 bathrooms and There are no garbage disposals . monday through friday there are 2 staff on duty (more toileting ) and in the evening 4 staff and overnights have 2 staff , they NEVER use bleach due to past Behaviors with clients and outside of hiring a honeysucker once a year to remove the solids the only problem they have had is when the pump inthe tank failed , the system they have has been in place for many years and they have had no trouble with it other than pump failure . so dont be afraid of your water use . what you might explore is the possibility of getting your township involved with this matter because perhaps they would assist you and your neighbors with doing a community based mound system . (meaning several houses on one mound , there are numerous small towns & lake area propertys where community shared mound systems are the normal thing ) LAST if you can prove that you do indeed have a easement through the other propertys . then if either one of the other 2 does something that damages that pipe they can be forced to pay for repairs , Im not sure in your area how deep one must go to be safe from winter freeze ups with any sort of pipes . but if they are deep enough and one of them builds over the top of the line and later the line is damaged after you have established a easement then they could be held accountable . When I lived in mpls one person I worked with her homes sewer line was run to the street to the side of her property and her neighbor was able to build a garage over the area the line ran , but too that was done many years ago . You really should try to use the sites links to find a different atty . The first one should have been able to give you a more clear answer . ( yes I was extra long winded in this but again bottom line is your best bet is a new atty .

 

[PatchesII]

OK FarmerJ - I do not doubt that one of these "mounds" can be sized to handle the load, but that only emphasis my other objections of taking up most of my property (thereby limiting my options for other improvements and also limiting the space my kids can play (the reason I bought the larger yard in the first place)), they are an eyesore that cannot be hidden, and the EXPENSE. I doubt very much that the neighbors will take too kindly to a suggestion of a community mound because of their objections to MY mound and offers to connect to the sewer (my treat!). My guess is that I'll have to hire an atty to resolve the Prescriptive Easement/Adverse Possession issue to get anything done. I have tried this sites links and found that it does NOT list any Premier Attys on this topic in my county, but is did list a few attys on the subject, one of which is the one I visited. Guess I'm on my own to search for representation.

Thanks anyway for all the comments.

 

[Souix]

To OP, my Real Estate dictionary gives the definition of a Prescriptive Easement as:

"The granting of an easement by the court, based on the presumption that a written easement was given (although none existed) after a period of open and continuous use of land".

You are on the right tract by talking to an attorney. Good Luck!