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HOA unwritten rule?

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Punofree

Junior Member
A commercial vehicle;

One used in the line of business.

While you say they never mentioned commercial vehicles to you, why are you citing a section under commercial vehicles? If it’s not a commercial vehicle then tell them it isn’t a commercial vehicle therefor that section of the rules doesnt apply here.

If they want to complain about a personal vehicles size, have them cite a rule for that.

Thank you! Yes, I did exactly that. I stated this:

"Thank you again for your reply, but the HOA still has not provided to me the definition for "oversized vehicles." It seems that Article III.5 is aimed for commercial vehicles, which my van is not:

'All oversized trucks or commercial vehicles, including trucks, displaying trade signage, commercial vehicles which have commercial equipment installed...'

If the Board is interpreting that the rule applies to any "oversized vehicles," commercial or not, I have to ask for the criteria that classifies a vehicle as oversized so that I can understand why my van in violation, especially since there are many large trucks and vans that park in the parking lot."


Their answer to me after that was "See the Rules and Regulations."

I once against asked for a formal response on why they are deeming my vehicle as "oversized," they said "We go by an unpublished criteria if it doesn't fit under the covered carport."


I nearly fell off my chair! I didn't know how I was supposed to know that.
 


justalayman

Senior Member
Strictly personal. I love to travel and go hiking/biking/kayaking. I only want for all my stuff to fit in a vehicle so I can take it all with me on trips.
Well in the last post you made you changed your facts again. I am lazy. When I hunt I gave up deer for cows because they don’t keep moving. I don’t like chasing things. A cow will stay in the same place for a long time.

. The rule actually states "All oversized trucks or commercial vehicles, including trucks displaying trade signage, commercial vehicles which have commercial
previously you said it was in a section addressing commercial vehicles. I spoke to that. Now it’s not a section addressing just commercial vehicles but vehicles in general.

This is the previous post where you stated it was within a rule on commercial vehicles:

Yes I'm aware, and this particular "oversized vehicle" rule is written within the commercial vehicle clause, which makes it seem like it applies even less to my vehicle. My vehicle is not commercial, or commercially marked in any way.

Between that and you trying to apply irrelevent laws/codes I’m checking out of this one. I’ll stick with my original post.

Do you have recourse? I would suggest starting with whatever process your hoa provides for contesting a citation for a violation of the rules. If worse comes to worse you can sue, if your vehicle is towed, seeking a courts definition and view of the rule in question.
 

Punofree

Junior Member
Well in the last post you made you changed your facts again. I am lazy. When I hunt I gave up deer for cows because they don’t keep moving. I don’t like chasing things. A cow will stay in the same place for a long time.

previously you said it was in a section addressing commercial vehicles. I spoke to that. Now it’s not a section addressing just commercial vehicles but vehicles in general.

This is the previous post where you stated it was within a rule on commercial vehicles:




Between that and you trying to apply irrelevent laws/codes I’m checking out of this one. I’ll stick with my original post.

I don't think I was changing the facts or applying irrelevant codes. I said it was within the commercial vehicle clause, and it is. In other words, where they speak about commercial vehicles, they also speak about oversized vehicles. As an opinion only, it seems this clause applies more to commercial vehicles than personal vehicles, but if that thinking is wrong, ok. It doesn't change the fact that the HOA is basing a decision on my vehicle with some kind of unwritten carport rule that I would have never known about unless they told me. Thanks for checking in. I wish you a happy checking out!
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
I don't think I was changing the facts or applying irrelevant codes. I said it was within the commercial vehicle clause, and it is. In other words, where they speak about commercial vehicles, they also speak about oversized vehicles. As an opinion only, it seems this clause applies more to commercial vehicles than personal vehicles, but if that thinking is wrong, ok. It doesn't change the fact that the HOA is basing a decision on my vehicle with some kind of unwritten carport rule that I would have never known about unless they told me. Thanks for checking in. I wish you a happy checking out!
Once again you are being totally disingenuous on this thread and with your arguments. Any reasonable person would know darned well that your cargo van was an oversized vehicle.
 

HRZ

Senior Member
OP I get your point...and an ascertainable standard going forward would,help,EVERYONE ..if a sprinter is ok..then then the idiot with a hot paint job on a small retired school bus is OK too...and how about the very small van that is all about Sams Speedy Sewer Service ..and my retired friend who has a very hot cart , unlicensed of course, that will beat many a car at a light ...what's that **************Solomon would be challenged ? ANd one of my friends can debate Which of his wagons and carts is commercial ...local police are not always happy with large horse drawn vehicles..and he carries a copy of relevant rules under the wagon seat ...
 

festival

Member
Vague or ambiguous provisions are not enforceable by the courts. So I've heard. So, yes, your docs and this unwritten rule sound like they are not enforceable. You may wish to find a court case in your state that shows that vague condo provisions are not enforceable, or truck/RV HOA court cases, or consult an HOA/Condo attorney.

While you are at it, find out the towing laws in your area. They may not have the authority to tow.

On the other hand, consider the general noise provision in many condo documents. According to your logic, you should be able to make noise, as long as the noise has not been defined. Your argument is not going to work in every case, even if the rule is undefined. The board often has authority to interpret the situation and the governing documents, and their interpretation may be found by a court to be reasonable.

As suggested, you can also pursue a hearing or meeting with the board to present that point of view, with or without an attorney. Try to get a reading for what the board is really after and how strongly they feel about it before getting your vehicle towed and going to court over it. Maybe work with the board to develop a better definition that meets their needs and allows your vehicle without opening the door to other large vehicles, which may be their real concern.
 

Punofree

Junior Member
Vague or ambiguous provisions are not enforceable by the courts. So I've heard. So, yes, your docs and this unwritten rule sound like they are not enforceable. You may wish to find a court case in your state that shows that vague condo provisions are not enforceable, or truck/RV HOA court cases, or consult an HOA/Condo attorney.

While you are at it, find out the towing laws in your area. They may not have the authority to tow.

On the other hand, consider the general noise provision in many condo documents. According to your logic, you should be able to make noise, as long as the noise has not been defined. Your argument is not going to work in every case, even if the rule is undefined. The board often has authority to interpret the situation and the governing documents, and their interpretation may be found by a court to be reasonable.

As suggested, you can also pursue a hearing or meeting with the board to present that point of view, with or without an attorney. Try to get a reading for what the board is really after and how strongly they feel about it before getting your vehicle towed and going to court over it. Maybe work with the board to develop a better definition that meets their needs and allows your vehicle without opening the door to other large vehicles, which may be their real concern.
I thank you and bow to you for a real and perhaps the only usable piece of advice in this thread. In addition, you bring a very good point in reference to noise provisions. I see the sensibility in everything not being explicitly defined. In my association’s case, noise provisions are, in fact, defined as a noise that is a disturbance or intereference of comfort or rights of another unit owner. They even go into great detail about what would be considered “too loud.” If they have such acute definition for noise, surely something like vehicle size, which COULD affect a persons livelihood or force them them to have to sell their current vehicle, would be defined as well, especially something with such a specific definition like “It has to fit within the dimensions of the carport.” Who would ever have the foresight into that unwritten definition with so many parking lots that don’t have a carport? I still find it interesting, nonetheless! Thank you again for taking the time to give me advice, sir or ma’am. :)

P.S. And you might be very right about vague provisions: http://sellersayers.com/homeowner-association-law/warning-covenants-too-vague-to-enforce/
 
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adjusterjack

Senior Member
While Festival's points are well taken, the reality is that just saying that something's not enforceable or that they may have no authority to tow doesn't mean anything unless a judge says it in a court of law.

Meantime, nothing stops them from towing your vehicle if they want to, whether they do it rightly or wrongly.

Seems to me that your HOA N-A-Z-Is have you in their sights. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they don't like your vehicle because it's "different" from other vehicles. HOAs are all about conformity, you know. Maybe they got complaints from neighbors who don't like your vehicle. Maybe they are just busybodies who have nothing better to do. That's the kind of thing you get when you live in an HOA in the first place.

You can certainly ask for a hearing or a meeting and try to talk it out with them but I suspect that it won't do you any good.

So, here's two options:

1 - Respond, in writing, that you disagree with the interpretation and if your vehicle gets towed you will sue the HOA and each individual board member.

1a - Better yet, spend a couple of hundred on having a lawyer write a scary looking letter explaining the weakness of their position.

2 - Ignore the HOA threat and if your vehicle gets towed, you pay to get it back and then sue the HOA for the money and get the issue before a judge.
 

LdiJ

Senior Member
While Festival's points are well taken, the reality is that just saying that something's not enforceable or that they may have no authority to tow doesn't mean anything unless a judge says it in a court of law.

Meantime, nothing stops them from towing your vehicle if they want to, whether they do it rightly or wrongly.

Seems to me that your HOA N-A-Z-Is have you in their sights. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they don't like your vehicle because it's "different" from other vehicles. HOAs are all about conformity, you know. Maybe they got complaints from neighbors who don't like your vehicle. Maybe they are just busybodies who have nothing better to do. That's the kind of thing you get when you live in an HOA in the first place.

You can certainly ask for a hearing or a meeting and try to talk it out with them but I suspect that it won't do you any good.

So, here's two options:

1 - Respond, in writing, that you disagree with the interpretation and if your vehicle gets towed you will sue the HOA and each individual board member.

1a - Better yet, spend a couple of hundred on having a lawyer write a scary looking letter explaining the weakness of their position.

2 - Ignore the HOA threat and if your vehicle gets towed, you pay to get it back and then sue the HOA for the money and get the issue before a judge.
I agree with this advice, however I think its a losing proposition for the OP. I think that a judge is going to think that its common sense that a vehicle of that nature would be considered to be oversized. They are not picking on any kind of vehicle that is in standard use as a family, passenger vehicle. They are picking on something that is standardly used as an extended, cargo vehicle.
 

Punofree

Junior Member
I agree with this advice, however I think its a losing proposition for the OP. I think that a judge is going to think that its common sense that a vehicle of that nature would be considered to be oversized. They are not picking on any kind of vehicle that is in standard use as a family, passenger vehicle. They are picking on something that is standardly used as an extended, cargo vehicle.
Hello, LdiJ - there is a Ford E350 Econoline van that parks in the association currently.
 

PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
I agree with this advice, however I think its a losing proposition for the OP. I think that a judge is going to think that its common sense that a vehicle of that nature would be considered to be oversized. They are not picking on any kind of vehicle that is in standard use as a family, passenger vehicle. They are picking on something that is standardly used as an extended, cargo vehicle.
And why would the judge think that, as the only place "oversized vehicle" is defined in Florida law is talking about very large trucks.
 

Punofree

Junior Member
While Festival's points are well taken, the reality is that just saying that something's not enforceable or that they may have no authority to tow doesn't mean anything unless a judge says it in a court of law.

Meantime, nothing stops them from towing your vehicle if they want to, whether they do it rightly or wrongly.

Seems to me that your HOA N-A-Z-Is have you in their sights. Maybe they don't like you. Maybe they don't like your vehicle because it's "different" from other vehicles. HOAs are all about conformity, you know. Maybe they got complaints from neighbors who don't like your vehicle. Maybe they are just busybodies who have nothing better to do. That's the kind of thing you get when you live in an HOA in the first place.

You can certainly ask for a hearing or a meeting and try to talk it out with them but I suspect that it won't do you any good.

So, here's two options:

1 - Respond, in writing, that you disagree with the interpretation and if your vehicle gets towed you will sue the HOA and each individual board member.

1a - Better yet, spend a couple of hundred on having a lawyer write a scary looking letter explaining the weakness of their position.

2 - Ignore the HOA threat and if your vehicle gets towed, you pay to get it back and then sue the HOA for the money and get the issue before a judge.

I tried to have a meeting with them, they didn't give me the time of day.

I even asked for special permission. Per the clause: "All oversized trucks or commercial vehicles, including trucks, displaying trade signage (excluding law enforcement and governmental vehicles); commercial vehicles which have commercial equipment installed on the exterior of the vehicle; and trailers, boats, recreational vehicles and motor homes may not be parked on the common elements, and they are prohibited in the general parking areas, except for temporary loading and unloading. Special permission may be obtained from the board for small types of such vehicles to be parked in a designated area. "

Their response to me upon my request was "No." When I asked "May I ask why not?" The gentleman on the board threw his hands up and said "Because we don't want to."

They are saying that my van is considered an oversized truck. But there are other really big trucks on the property. And cargo vans at that, like a Ford E350 Econoline. Another thing I saw today, there is an unregistered vehicle parked in a parking spot. It has been there for at least 3 days. When I had purchased my vehicle, they did not allow me a grace period of a few days to get tags (which actually was the original issue involving the van - nothing about oversized). When they threatened to tow me based on no tag, I said I will get them the same day. I am an engineer and work late hours, so coordinating with DMV times is difficult. They denied my request for the grace period then told me to remove the van regardless of tags, now it's because it's considered an oversized truck.

I just don't know how people who are buying a condo in the community have foresight into what they mean by oversized truck, and furthermore, that they specifically mean "must fit in a carport" when there are many parking spots without a carport. I don't understand the logic, but I suppose they don't need to be logical.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
And why would the judge think that, as the only place "oversized vehicle" is defined in Florida law is talking about very large trucks.
The definition in the Florida law speaking to oversized vehicles and rules and permits and such when travelling on the roadways does not apply to a private enterprise on private property nor this situation in general.


I guess the question is; what are you looking for here?

Your options have been explained to you. There is one I don’t thing I’ve read here but that is you proactively suing the hoa seeking a declaratory judgment on the matter.

So, you either wait until they do something and then deal with it, as described previously, or you lawyer up and sue seeking a court’s opinion now.


that they specifically mean "must fit in a carport" when there are many parking spots without a carport. I don't understand the logic, but I
That’s a silly argument. That’s like saying the vehicle can’t be over 7 feet tall but since I don’t have a tape measure handy it can’t apply to me. Whether you have a carport or not, “fits in a carport” is defining the size. If you want accurate measurements, get out your tape measure and measure a carport.
 
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PayrollHRGuy

Senior Member
The definition in the Florida law speaking to oversized vehicles and rules and permits and such when travelling on the roadways does not apply to a private enterprise on private property nor this situation in general.
Exactly, that is what I was saying. The fact that "oversized" isn't defined in the law and plain language doesn't help a judge may rule in the OPs favor.
 

justalayman

Senior Member
Exactly, that is what I was saying. The fact that "oversized" isn't defined in the law and plain language doesn't help a judge may rule in the OPs favor.
That’s not what I was saying though. Given the situation, no definition in the law would apply. Trying to argue it isn’t defined in the law doesn’t help because the laws don’t apply here.

But, in the op’s typical manner, he has alluded to the possibility “oversized” is in fact defined. Somewhere he came up with this;

that they specifically mean "must fit in a carport" when there are many parking spots without a carport. I don't understand the logic, but I suppose they don't
Must fit in a carport is defining the size. If that was just an oral interpretation by the board member, then it’s meaningless. If it is written in the rules, it’s pretty defining

And while op wants to argue there is an E-350 van in the development, If it is standard height, it isn’t comparable to op’s van.
 

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