Honda Accord Lemon : Safety Issue .. need help

[MVE]

What is the name of your state? NJ

I have filed a Lemon Law case against Honda for a 2003 Accord EX V6.

The problem is that when I hold the steering straight .. the car does not maintain a straight line and veers off to the left shifting a lane is less then 5 seconds (Highway at around 65 mph).

So, when I have to drive straight, I have to tug the steering wheel to the right and keep on adjusting it constantly.

Took it to the dealership (thrice, but the never took it for a test), Honda inspected it -- somehow they cannot seem to find

the problem. But I see it happening day in and day out.

The lawyer's expert also has observed the problem, he says that the problem could be solved by simply readjusting the steering wheel. However Honda flatly denies that the problem even exists, and refuses to acknowledge and remedy the situation.

The court has ordered a video shoot. In addition to that, I also want to ask Honda to present metrics related to how much the car is veering compared to a new car and have it ratified by its own factory standards or by the DOT or the NHTSA saying that what deviation is normal, safe and acceptable. I believe, once relevant metrics are presented, there would be no need for a subjective opinion at all.

I wanted to seek help to figure out what should be the metrics I should be asking for from Honda? And how should that data be presented?
Appreciate any help you an provide on the same.

 

[dallas702]

Did you have an independent front end/frame shop verify the condition? Has it been aligned according to factory specs? If you are talking about the position of the steering wheel relative to the direction of the car, that only takes a few minutes to correct. However, sometimes it indicates a different condition...like the car was in an accident.

The lemon law will only apply if the condition has been recognized since the car was produced. IE., used cars aren't usually qualified under Lemon laws unless there is a history of the problem since new.

FWIW I'd take it to an independent shop, have them check the front end, and then adjust the position of the wheel. That should be about $50....certainly making it not worth the time you are going to spend pursuing this.

You should be thankful you didn't buy one of those "reliable" Odyssey vans with the $5000+ transmissions that disintegrate when the warranty runs out.

 

[MVE]

Thanks for your reply dallas702, appreciate your inputs
Answering your questions, the car is new, never been in an accident, has about 21,000 miles over 2 and a half yrs. The dealership has aligned it 3 times till now, first one at abt 5K miles.

I was advised by the lawyer's expert to get the problem looked at yesterday and discussed the same with the lawyer as well, however as we discussed it became obvious that doing so would essentially void the warranty as changing the position of the steering wheel would be a fairly complicated procedure not falling under the purview of a maintenance activity. I plan to take it to a shop anyways, just to see what they have to say.

While on the face of it, it could be as simple as adjusting the position of the steering wheel relative to the direction of the car, it could also indicate something wrong with the steering system which consists of the tires, steering mechanism, power steering, steering column and the steering wheel itself. Any thing could go wrong .. and no one except Honda would be qualified to diagnose and rectify whatever is the problem. Moreover, the problem has become acute over a period of time, had the issue been that just the steering wheel was off center, it should have remained at a constant angle and not changed over a period of time.

I am pissed because Honda is not taking responsibility for its own product. If they can’t / won’t diagnose the problem and take steps to rectify it, they should take the car back, in the spirit of the lemon law.

 

[dallas702]

That doesn't sound good. Honda treated the Odyssey owners the same way.

 

[cjbrown929]

alignment issues

This can be a complicated issue that SOMETIMES can be solved simply.

I have to assume that tire pressure has been ruled out as a possible source.

Another POSSIBLE source, especially if you test the car on the same stretch of roadway, is the fact that most highways and streets have a slight "pitch" to them to allow water runoff (some have a lot of pitch). This would be true for even long straight stretches. This "pitch", though slight, can induce a car with perfect alignment to "veer" off the road just like water, only much faster as the vehicle is moving much more rapidly. Try driving another car over the same stretch. If it tracks OK, this is probably not the problem.

The only other thing I would check would be the brakes, to make sure that, say, a caliper wasn't stuck.

I would add that Honda is genuinely dedicated to solving this problem and making you happy (I sold Hondas for a while). Hopefully it will be quickly solved. If not, you have your lemon law alternative.

 

[MVE]

Thanks

This can be a complicated issue that SOMETIMES can be solved simply.
A : Precisely, that's has been my stand. Every time I took the car to the dealership, they did not even take it for a test drive, on two occassions the in/out mileage was same, and one one occassion there was a difference of 2 miles .. hardly an indication of a test drive .. right? And they concluded that they could not replicate the problem -- admitted am not a mechanial genius but I don't get the logic here -- how can one say that they have not been able to replicate a problem, if they have not attempted to simulate the problem -- which .. in this case would be to take the car for a test. Just does not make sense to me.

I have to assume that tire pressure has been ruled out as a possible source.
A : Yess Sir.

Another POSSIBLE source, especially if you test the car on the same stretch of roadway, is the fact that most highways and streets have a slight "pitch" to them to allow water runoff (some have a lot of pitch). This would be true for even long straight stretches. This "pitch", though slight, can induce a car with perfect alignment to "veer" off the road just like water, only much faster as the vehicle is moving much more rapidly. Try driving another car over the same stretch. If it tracks OK, this is probably not the problem.
A : Yes, I was given this as a possible explanation earlier. However, at this time, I think that cause can be factored out, have tried different roads, different lanes, different conditions and different cars too.

I am a salesperson, and my job requires travel within and outside the region. Drive more rental cars than I would want to, have not found this sort of thing in any other make and model. The last car I drove was a Lincoln LS this Monday over the same roads for a 370 miles round trip didn't observe this problem, and you know how rental cars are kept.

As per Honda’s own representative, its cars are designed to move / drift towards the right .. away from oncoming traffic so as to avoid a possible head on collision incase the driver loses consciousness and / or is unable to control the vehicle.
When I hold the steering wheel of my car straight, the vehicle changes course and moving quite abruptly to the left and into oncoming traffic

The only other thing I would check would be the brakes, to make sure that, say, a caliper wasn't stuck.
A : I will tell the dealership to check the brakes, but I think they would have checked that when they did the alignment. However the whole point of my frustration is that as a consumer I should not be forced to beg for advice in forums and rely on the kindness of good samaritians like yourself to solve this.

It is Honda's responsibility and they are the only ones appropriately skilled and tooled to diagnose and take care of the problem and that's what they have been paid for. When I coughed up 25K for the car, the whole 25K worked right?? they didn't have to comeback to me sand say "hey listen buddy .. of the 25K u gave us, only 20K is working fine, we are unable to use the 5K -- can u help us out" -- right??


I would add that Honda is genuinely dedicated to solving this problem and making you happy (I sold Hondas for a while). Hopefully it will be quickly solved. If not, you have your lemon law alternative.
A : Well I would like to agree with you on that, but Honda has not shown much of an interest or inclination to live up to it.

I have filed a Lemon case, and right now the court has ordered a video shoot. I am also looking to get Honda to produce metrics saying how much the car is deviating from a straight line and compare it to that od a new car as well as published data from the MHTSA or DOT, and am seeking help on that.
The following URL would give you an idea of what I am looking at. Would greatly appreciate your help in refining the same.

http://rapidshare.de/files/6561049/Car_Metrics_ver_1.0.xls.html
[click or copy/paste the URL to your browser. Scroll down to the web page and click on "Free" access. The server will assign you a download ticket and provide a download link after a few seconds at the bottom of the page]

 

[cjbrown929]

steering problems

It's obvious that you have spent a lot of time and effort on this problem.

It's also apparent that Honda is NOT as concerned with customer satisfaction as I thought they would be.

They might as well just cross off their potential buyer list a LOT of your friends, and some of the people who peruse this site who otherwise might've considered purchasing a Honda.

HONDA- GET A CLUE!

I will review the info you gave me.

 

[evanprice]

You really don't know much about cars do you? I worked as a auto tire/alignment tech all through school to make money. I saw this type of problem all the time. First off, tire pressure differences, and the tires themselves, can cause this. A tire with a slipped belt or excessive out-of-roundness can cause the car to pull. Rotating the tires from the left side to the right side and seeing if the pull follows the tires would be my next step. I realize this is not an auto-repair forum but I really think from your description the problem is not the CAR itself being mismanufactured but rather something else simple like an uncorrected or mirepaired alignment issue or a tire problem... It would be highly unlikely in a new car that you bought new with no miles and never crashed or ran into a ditch or curb or something, that it would be so far off as to be uncorrectable.
A proper front end alignment can be performed by adjusting the car's front end parts, you can then set the steering wheel to any angle you want within the limits of the front end parts, without removing the steering wheel itself. The tie rods are adjusted on both sides to in effect make the steering wheel center position change. This does not in any way affect your warranty and it is a normal maintenance procedure.
If your car's steering self centers and goes straight with the steering wheel some degree off of straight ahead, then you just need to the car realigned CORRECTLY because any shop is only as good as the mech doing the work and they all have bad days.
The problem you are describing, if Honda's techs can't fix it, would best be fixed by taking it to a reputable major frame and collision repair facility. They are the best people to deal with this sort of problem. If they find the problem and fix it, then if the problem was not caused by you running into a curb or something, Honda should reimburse you (Good luck on that!)
I highly doubt that this car will be lemon returned because the problem is really so minor that it could be corrected IF your dealership knows what they are doing. If all else fails try ANOTHER Honda dealer, or else an Acura dealer. They usually get the better techs there than a regular Honda dealer.

Bear in mind I've never seen your car, but I personally have never seen a car that was so out of alignment that it could not be corrected, UNLESS it had been in a previous collision or low speed off-road excursion and bent/damaged something. And I worked on cars for 6 years in school and still do to this day (for a total of 20 years.)

 

[dallas702]

evanprice;

Technically you are correct, but I don't think the problem is that OP doesn't know about cars (insult unnecessary), but rather that Honda hasn't been intelligent enough to determine the problem and/or correct it. Yes, it could be as simple as a bad belt in the tire, but it doesn't matter if Honda won't even admit there IS a problem. That's why I had already suggested OP take it to a good front end/frame shop for a better look.

MVE;

Try the tire swap and see what happens. You'll know in 30-40 minutes if you can do it yourself.

 

[evanprice]

was advised by the lawyer's expert to get the problem looked at yesterday and discussed the same with the lawyer as well, however as we discussed it became obvious that doing so would essentially void the warranty as changing the position of the steering wheel would be a fairly complicated procedure not falling under the purview of a maintenance activity.

is Honda's responsibility and they are the only ones appropriately skilled and tooled to diagnose and take care of the problem

Judging by those two statements the lawyer knows nothing about cars or their maintenance or manufacture. For a lemon law case to proceed this car would have to have been so poorly made that the car was unfixable. In my opinion without seeing the car this is not going to be the case. They just need a COMPETENT mechanic to look at it.


My personal issue is that I saw way too many people who really don't know what they are doing who jump for a lawyer as soon as they can see an excuse for it rather than solving the problem. I was personally sued (unsuccessfully) by someone I sold a car to, with as-is bill of sale, who claimed 2 years later the brakes were defective and nearly caused an accident. The brakes had been worn to the metal over the two years of use and never maintained by the new owner. I had just put on new brakes before I sold the car, they were lifetime warranty and I gave the service documents to the new owner. They sued me because they felt I sold them the car with "defective brakes" and they nearly had an accident; their lawyer claimed the car had "an extensive history of brake problems" (based on my maintenance receipts for timely replacement of worn parts over the years!) and was "an unsafe time bomb waiting to kill the next driver."

Total bullshize that give trial lawyers the deserved bad name! Probably a contingency case and they wanted $25,000 for their expenses and damages. They offered straight away to settle for $5000 but I told them hell no and the judge threw it out.

 

[rafiki]

MVE,

Thought I'd chime in here on your problem as I have exactly the same steering situation with my 2003 V6 Accord here in VA.

I feel your pain as I had this problem from mile 1 on my car. I took the car in immediately after receiving it and the dealer "checked" the alignment with no deficiencies noted. I subsequently returned the car to the dealer multiple times for the same problem to no avail.

Basically driving in the center lane of a crowned road… car runs straight as an arrow. Get the car to the left or right of the crown and whoa I have to hang onto the wheel otherwise I’ll dart into the median. Even at slow speeds the wheel creeps to the left.

Here’s what I’ve done so far.

1. Tire pressure precisely set to exact factory specs for all 4 tires. No change, still pulls.
2. Tires on car new, no wear evident, yet car still pulls.
3. Alignment checked by Honda Dealer 4 times, said to be perfect, car still pulls.
4. Contacted Manufacturer, and surprise they never heard of the problem!
5. Road test by dealer’s expert mechanic… car normal according to technician.
6. Road test by other dealer’s expert mechanic… car normal according to tech.
7. Had Sears service center align all 4 wheels, with slight adjustments made, car still pulls.
8. Basically I continue driving the car, placing my left hand at 2 o’clock not letting go for even a moment least I’m darting for the median.

Basically I’m very dissatisfied with this vehicle as this has not been the only problem, below is a list of other problems with this same vehicle.

1. Front brake rotors warped at 19k miles, dealer turned rotors and replaced pads.
2. Left and Right headlights both burnt out.
3. TCS light comes on and off intermittently; dealer finds no fault, problem remains.
4. Transmission Recall for 2nd gear problem, dealer installed 2nd gear oiler.
5. Transmission shifting problem at 28k miles, dealer changes transmission fluid, no help. Two test-drives with “expert” techs stating transmission is normal, while it is clearly malfunctioning.
6. Transmission fails, locks in 2nd gear, vehicle towed to dealer for complete transmission change at 29k miles.
7. TCS system fails, light turns on and TCS deactivated, peeling rubber from stop.
8. Dealer TS TCS system, found 3 bad sensors, replaced and TCS is working for now.
9. Replacement “factory rebuilt” transmission @ 29.5k miles now exhibiting same problem as original transmission. I’m Ready to shoot this vehicle!

I want to like this car, however it just has too many problems with it. I thought that Honda’s were supposed to be reliable; unfortunately this is not the case.

It seems to me that the force required to move the steering from left to right is more than it should be. This said it is my belief that the rack and pinion system doesn’t port enough pressure to return the wheel to a “neutral” center position with the current pressure on the system. If the centering pressure were sufficient the wheel would tend to seek the center position on it’s own.

So maybe the alignment is perfect, the tire pressure is perfect and Honda engineered the most sophisticated and precise caster and camber system available on the market. However… the steering centering and feel department missed the mark entirely.

Bottom line… we shouldn’t get tennis elbow trying to keep the car going straight down the road! The 2003 Honda Accord V6 clearly has a BIG problems with Steering, Transmission and TCS systems.
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[Irishman]

Re: 2003 Honda Accord Alignment Problem

California

I also own a 2003 Honda Accord EX V6 Sedan, and experienced a similar problem with front end alignment. From the date I drove the car off the lot, the car pulls slightly to the right. I took it back to the dealership several times to no avail. Also called and initiated a formal complaint with Honda of America. They had me take it to another dealer, but they were unable to correct the problem. Despite my formal complaint to Honda, I never received a follow-up call from them to find out if the problem was resolved. I posted my complaints and details on Edmunds.com, where I found many similar complaints. I'm glad that you are pursuing the Lemon Law. I eventually gave up, which is what Honda hopes most people will do! I've just decided that I will never buy another Honda, despite having owned 7 Hondas in the past 20 years.

 

[dallas702]

While this alignment problem certainly seems annoying, be glad you're not one of the thousands of Odyssey owners who have spent $5000 replacing their transmissions. Honda is blowing most of them off, too.