How does the ATF measure rifles for legal length?

[Donny H]

What is the name of your state? Utah

I hope I put this in the right forum.

The question is: On a rifle with a folding stock, do you measure for overall length with the stock folded or open. I'm really looking for some federal document or precedent setting decision.

It is a point of debate for gun owners, with high stakes, many folks are convinced that you measure when the stock is open, to achieve the minimum length of 26". If it fact you measure when folded, these folks are in possession of a short barreled rifle, a class III gun, the same as a machine gun or sawed off shotgun. High stakes indeed.

The 1934 National Firearms Act is very clear, rifle barrels must be 16", and overall length 26". Supposed there is a letter from the ATF that states the measurement is taken when the stock is open. This supposed letter is the base of all the written opinions I have been able to find on this matter, you no source seems to be able to produce a copy of this letter.

On its face it appears logical, as the ATF has allowed the importations of several rifles that have a length of under 26" with the stock in the folded/collapsed position.

I found literally dozens of hunting/gun/camping message boards and forums that have discussed this issue to death, and there is no clear answer.

Folks have even got differing opinions from calls and letters to local offices of the ATF.

I did read that most of the states defer to federal law on the issue of definitions of firearms, so this question affects most of the country.

 

[seniorjudge]

http://www.nra.org/

 

[Donny H]

Thanks, but I spent about five hours reading on the NRA site, and it's not there.

I also read the entire ATF site, nothing there.

I sent an email to the NRA, no response yet, I'm not sure it would matter, so far, gun owners seem to buy one of two theorys, all based on the same sources.

That is why I quit seeking help from gun owners, and am seeking advice from those familiar with the law side of it all.

Is there such a thing as a law firm specializing in classIII, FFL, or ATF regs?

 

[EvilWizard]

Depends on what you want to do with it:

From Utah Code Section 76-10-501 Definitions:

(17) "Sawed-off shotgun" or "sawed-off rifle" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of fewer than 18 inches in length, or in the case of a rifle, having a barrel or barrels of fewer than 16 inches in length, or any dangerous weapon made from a rifle or shotgun by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall length of fewer than 26 inches.

From Utah Code Section 76-10-504
76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.

(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):

(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

(2) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.

I suggest you look through Title 76 Section 10 here: and find what situation applies to you.

http://www.le.state.ut.us/~code/TITLE76/76_0C.htm

 

[Donny H]

Unfortunately, there is no info on the Utah site about which method of measuring rifles with folding stocks is used to arrive at "overall length of twenty-six inches".

 

[xylene]

Push the oversight!

I urge you to push this real hard until this oversight is corrected with draconian consequences.... Just busting on you.

But seriously Q- On the folding stock issue- is the rifle able to be fired with the stock folded or not? Not talking accurately, but at all, even if it would be dangerous to the user.

If the firing mechanism or barrel are not directly interfered with in the folding mechanism...

 

[Donny H]

Yes, my design could be fired while folded, not accurately, but fired. That is also true of most or all of the models in question (Uzi, AK, FN-FAL, for example).

Just for the record, I got a longer barrel so my rifle project will be legal by either method of measuring. I do wish I didn't have to, this .22 rifle is for backpacking/kayaking, every inch and every ounce really counts.

I am dumbfounded that there is no clear cut rule on this somewhere, all those guys out there with rifles they think are legal...

 

[seniorjudge]

Yes, my design could be fired while folded, not accurately, but fired. That is also true of most or all of the models in question (Uzi, AK, FN-FAL, for example).

Just for the record, I got a longer barrel so my rifle project will be legal by either method of measuring. I do wish I didn't have to, this .22 rifle is for backpacking/kayaking, every inch and every ounce really counts.

I am dumbfounded that there is no clear cut rule on this somewhere, all those guys out there with rifles they think are legal...

Ask the ATF.

 

[Donny H]

ATF won't give me a straight answer.

I've heard opinions from individuals within the ATF, just like I've heard opinions from other law enforcement officers, but no one will give me a written answer, on official letterhead.

 

[CdwJava]

The "overall" length is the length of the weapon as a single piece. In other words, the length of the weapon MINUS the folding stock.

- Carl