How Free is my Personal Life?

[JLR80]

What is the name of your state? Illinois

I'm a relatively young high school teacher in my early 20s who is beginning his third year of teaching. I was asked out on a date by a former female student last Spring who was a Freshman in college (2nd Semester) and will be 20 yrs old soon. While this young lady was a high school student we had no type of inappropriate relationship whatsover. She was a student and I was a teacher and that's honestly as far as it extended at that time. I had no contact with her from the time she graduated until she called me up out of the blue this past Spring.

Needless to say this rather small, conservative community has not looked favorably upon this relationship. Some people have suggested that I be fired for having an "inappropriate relationship" with a former student, but I say it's none of their damn business. Some students argue that they don't feel comfortable around me in the classroom. I think people are overreacting. The administration has "strongly suggested" that I end this relationship until she is out of school at least another year, but they did not come out and say that I couldn't see this person. However, I feel that I have been strong armed into altering my personal life based on public perception.

Did I legally do anything wrong? Does the school have any leg to stand on if I were terminated, since I've had positive evaluations the past two years? I'm assuming they would not give a reason, but that I could be dismissed this year if some people don't start minding their own business.

Thanks for the help.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

You can be dismissed for seeing the girl, for not seeing her or for boinking her on the Principle's desk. Only one of these will most likely give you a good basis for a lawsuit against the school district.

Contact a local employment law attorney who can give you more options.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Does your district have any policies re personal relationships with students? What does your(union) contract say?
It is less a matter of your ages and more a matter of not being an equal relationship, you have more power even if she has graduated. This is called in psychological terms, "transference". In many professions there is a 2 year rule, two years after a professional relationship is terminated before a romantic relationship could be commenced. It isn't usually a problem if you are both adults and free to have a relationship and no one complains.

I have seen this many times and you should know this before you do get yourself into trouble. Adolecescent girls often develop a crush on a HS teacher, Mr. D. was the object of many a students desires, they often have "Borderline" personalities and it is very possible that her calling you out of the blue was a lonnnnnnnnnnnng planned accident and she may be behind the rumers as well otherwise why would anyone know if you two were discrete and she is away at college? If it is true love it will wait for another year. Tell her your job is in jeopardy and not to contact you until September 2007, then if you both are still agreeable, things may go on from there and in the mean time you are both free to date others. DON'T date anymore students or former students, restrict yourself to adult women over the age of 21 or closer to your age.

 

[BelizeBreeze]

Does your district have any policies re personal relaitonships with students?
It is less a matter of your ages and more a matter of not being an equal relationship, you have more power even if she has graduated. This is called in psychological terms, "transference". In many professions there is a 2 year rule, two years after a professional relationship is terminated before a romantic relationship could be commenced. It isn't usually a problem if you are both adults and free to have a relationship and no one complains.

I have seen this many times and you should know this before you do get yourself into trouble. Adolecescent girls often develop a crush on a HS teacher, Mr. D. was the object of many a students desires, they often have "Borderline" personalities and it is very possible that her calling you out of the blue was a lonnnnnnnnnnnng planned accident and she may be behind the rumers as well otherwise why would anyone know if you two were discrete and she is away at college? If it is true love it will wait for another year. Tell her your job is in jeopardy and not to contact you until September 2007, then if you both are still agreeable, things may go on from there and in the mean time you are both free to date others. DON'T date anymore students or former students, restrict yourself to adult women over the age of 21 or closer to your age.

I would expect this answer from Ldji...NOT you.
It's none of the District's business ...period.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I would expect this answer from Ldji...NOT you.
It's none of the District's business ...period.

Never! Excuse me I forgot to cite!
Many educational organizations have policies re dating students/former students because there is the "transference" issue. (My brother married one of his college professors before there was a policy against it.) You think the adult female mind is kaniving, that is burn out compared to the adolescent female! My response was more for his safety than anything else, giving it a year will make a huge difference.
http://kspope.com/ethics/Children_Ethics_and_the_Law.pdf

My adult son @ about 20 and in the USMC was already dating a very nice young lady, while visiting on a "96" this 17 yo girl met him at a party and went after him, she joined the USMC on a Delayed Entry Program and got a friend to join, volunteered to be a wire monkey as long as they would send her to Camp LeJuene so she could be with my son who was still going with someone else, he came back to his quarters one day and there she was sitting outside his door!

 

[JLR80]

I want to state right off the bat that I would never, ever have any type of a relationship with a CURRENT student beyond that of a teacher/student relationship in the classroom . I understand that dating students who are enrolled as a "STUDENT" in the school is wrong, ethically and legally (if they are under 18 and "sexualy activity" is involved) and would by all means result in immediate dismissal. I'm not that dumb that I would ever do something like this, so please don't doubt my character in that regard.

There is no school board/district policy concerning this type of a situation and the collective bargaining agreement contains no protocall for this type of a situation either. The building NEA representative told me that she did not see how this relationship would be a problem since the girl in question is a consenting adult and we had no inappropriate relationship while she was a student, but the building representative told me that she would confirm with the NEA lawyer to be on the safe side. We are awaiting a final answer from him.

I was called into the principal's office. I've tried to restate the conversation as best I can.

Me: "Did I do anything wrong here?"

Principal: "I honestly don't know, but I can tell you that people are asking questions and I have to make sure that nothing was going on while she was a student." "Just how good of friends are you with her if I am asked?"

Me: "We went on a few dinner dates and she comes over to watch movies, that's about it." "I can assure you that nothing was going on while she was a student, as I was seeing (name) another faculty member at the time." "What are you suggesting?"

Principal: "My advice is that some students, parents and faculty members are uncomfortable with this relationship. People in the community are talking and it sheds a negative light on both you and the district. I would advise you to discontinue contact with her (name) for at least another year or two. If you don't heed my advice then there is little I can do when this goes beyond me and people complain to a higher authority in the district. Some students were so upset they went to the school resource officer wanting to know if charges could be pressed. This has the potential to impact your effectiveness as a teacher in this community if students don't have confidence in you or are not comfortable around you."

Me: "Thanks for the advice, but I do feel that I am being punished by busy bodies who are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I will consider what you have said."
--------------------
I don't understand this whole transference issue. How can any organization deny the right of two consenting adults to have a relationship? I feel like I'm in friggin **** Germany or something, really. To be honest this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth for the community and the educational system here. Why do people care what I do in my free time? Are they that hard up for dirty laundry? It's not as if I've murdered someone or raped some chick, I'm exercising a freedom of association with whomever I please. I don't get it.

 

[JLR80]

Update

Thanks to all that have responded thus far. rmet4nzkx - I guess what you said was right. I received an email this morning from our building NEA representative, who forwarded me the email she received from the IEA regional representative who contacted the attorney for this area.

I totally disagree with this entire rationale, but I guess my hands are tied and I have one choice: stop or be fired. I expect to be fired anyhow (they'll come up with something else) since some parents are threatening to go to the school board, but at least I have nine months to find another job, etc.

Curt: Maybe I should have pursued law enforcement, I bet they don't even deal with this much crap.

I am pasting the email below, omitting the names of course:

------------------------
(Name),

I heard back from the attorney this morning. The general rule of thumb in these types of cases is to avoid dating former students for at least two years from the time they graduated or would have graduated from another if school if they transferred. This is a precedent that has been set by previous case law concerning similar matters that have went before federal district courts. It can be argued that a teacher has “undue influence” over a student, even after the relationship between a teacher and a student has ended. Since the administration has stated that students are upset and that their feelings impact the way they view him as an educator, it can be argued that his behavior outside of the school environment impacts his “nexus” of teaching. In plain English terms this means that his behavior is having a negative impact on the ability of at least one pupil to learn, so the school district actually does have grounds to remove him on immorality charges. Federal courts have generally ruled in favor of school districts terminating certificated personnel when their teaching nexus is affected by immoral or unethical behavior that violated community norms outside of the school setting.

Since students are upset he faces a serious dilemma. It would be advisable for him to cease the relationship and heed the advice of your building administration. The school already has a formidable case to dismiss him at the end of the contract year, and that may likely happen anyhow. (attorney Name) said he can challenege the dismissal but faces a good possibility of being unsuccessful. He is free to contact a local attorney if he wishes, but that’s the advice I received from our legal representative this morning. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[JLR80]

Ha.

You have no idea.

As an aside, I know you don't like being told who you can see or who you can't, but seriously.... have you given any thought as to where that relationship was going?

She's what? 19 or 20? How long do you think she's going to stay interested?

Or you're going to stay interested?

Is a temporary fling worth your job/career?

Yes, I understand all of this and I have weighed the options. I reiterate that I feel such a policy is totally unfair and restricts freedom of association on my behalf, but I'm certainly not going to push the issue and deliberately wind up jobless.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I want to state right off the bat that I would never, ever have any type of a relationship with a CURRENT student beyond that of a teacher/student relationship in the classroom . I understand that dating students who are enrolled as a "STUDENT" in the school is wrong, ethically and legally (if they are under 18 and "sexualy activity" is involved) and would by all means result in immediate dismissal. I'm not that dumb that I would ever do something like this, so please don't doubt my character in that regard.

There is no school board/district policy concerning this type of a situation and the collective bargaining agreement contains no protocall for this type of a situation either. The building NEA representative told me that she did not see how this relationship would be a problem since the girl in question is a consenting adult and we had no inappropriate relationship while she was a student, but the building representative told me that she would confirm with the NEA lawyer to be on the safe side. We are awaiting a final answer from him.

I was called into the principal's office. I've tried to restate the conversation as best I can.

Me: "Did I do anything wrong here?"

Principal: "I honestly don't know, but I can tell you that people are asking questions and I have to make sure that nothing was going on while she was a student." "Just how good of friends are you with her if I am asked?"

Me: "We went on a few dinner dates and she comes over to watch movies, that's about it." "I can assure you that nothing was going on while she was a student, as I was seeing (name) another faculty member at the time." "What are you suggesting?"

Principal: "My advice is that some students, parents and faculty members are uncomfortable with this relationship. People in the community are talking and it sheds a negative light on both you and the district. I would advise you to discontinue contact with her (name) for at least another year or two. If you don't heed my advice then there is little I can do when this goes beyond me and people complain to a higher authority in the district. Some students were so upset they went to the school resource officer wanting to know if charges could be pressed. This has the potential to impact your effectiveness as a teacher in this community if students don't have confidence in you or are not comfortable around you."

Me: "Thanks for the advice, but I do feel that I am being punished by busy bodies who are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I will consider what you have said."
--------------------
I don't understand this whole transference issue. How can any organization deny the right of two consenting adults to have a relationship? I feel like I'm in friggin **** Germany or something, really. To be honest this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth for the community and the educational system here. Why do people care what I do in my free time? Are they that hard up for dirty laundry? It's not as if I've murdered someone or raped some chick, I'm exercising a freedom of association with whomever I please. I don't get it.

While I hate to be the bearer of bad news, it is far better you get it here than in a formal disciplinary action or lose your job. As you see, my previous comments and the letter from counsel say the same thing and really, this is no surprise. While your intent may be "innocent" actions speak louder than words and to be frank, your maturity level and judgement are questionable and I see this as becoming a constant struggle for you. You are far too nieve to be dealing with high school students at this time in your life and you have what are called "boundary issues". If you have any mental health coverage, please avail yourself of personal counseling and work through this issue with a trained and licensed counselor.

Both you and the letter hint at other issues which put your employment in jeopardy, so don't neglect those issues either or you will find yourself in a constant struggle maintaining employment.

This issue for you comes at a bad time with all the recent media attention on inappropriate, teacher/student relationships and of the school teacher/child porn/fugitive/murder susspect John Mark Karr, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/18/national/main1909118.shtml http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/local/states/california/peninsula/15303558.htm
so this is an additional, unfair, burden you will have to address.

Life is not fair and the wheels of justice grind exceedingly slow. Please take the path of wisdom.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

I responded to your PM, however, since it was so long I could only provide you with a short reply. You keep giving the same arguments, they are irrelevant. When they are talking 2 years, they mean at least 2 years following graduation, when you no longer have the same influence. She called you a few months after she graduated the Jan following graduation, 6 months later, not 2 years later. You are nieve or there is some reason why you can't date women your own age or see why this is such a problem. Please get some counseling, that is the place to work through these issues and to learn what boundary violations are and why you need to learn to develop appropriate relationships.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

Please post your quesitons here and not by PM, there is simply not sufficient room in a PM and everyone benefits by the questions and answers in their entire context.

I understand what you are trying to say about the transparency issue. Let me try this from a different angle and keep it short.

Does the transparency principle have a legal standing or application to high school teachers? In other words IF I had continued this relationship and chosen to push the envelope (I did not as I previously indicated) and the school had fired me, would their argument that my actions violated this transparency boundary have sustained itself on any previous case law or legal ground?

You don't even want to go there unless you are independently wealthy and can afford to spend thousands of dollars on a losing issue. The basic legal theroies will suffice at this point. It is beyond the scope of these forums to cover your quesitons in depth, especially when you have already mistaken the issue.

I want to make sure this principle has legal standing (it was hinted in the letter I posted), so any references to case law would be appreciated.

It is "tranference" not transparency!

Yes this applies to teachers and/or any fiduciary relationship, it is a matter of public policy, where one person places complete confidence in another in regard to a particular transaction or one's general affairs or business, in this case education. The relationship is not necessarily formally or legally established as in a declaration of trust, but can be one of moral or personal responsibility, due to the superior knowledge and training of the fiduciary (teacher) as compared to the one whose affairs the fiduciary is handling (student).

The school district is in turn responsible for your actions under the legal theory of respondeat superior (rehs-pond-dee-at superior) Latin for "let the master answer," a key doctrine in the law of agency, which provides that a principal (employer/school) is responsible for the actions of his/her/its agent (employee/teacher) in the "course of employment." In your case the relationship is thought to extend beyond the formal relationship not only out of school hours such as when you encounter a student in the community, but by approximately 2 years in the natural course of things. So while she may have graduated or reached majority, there are instances where you might still be in a place to act in that former capacity, such as a letter of reccommendation, where your opinion as an educator would be biased and further questioned.

I am concerned that you didn't cover this subject in your training, wasn't there either a "law" course or requirement for your student teaching practicum?

You really need to look up th emeanings of the words,
transference
projection
abuse of power
undue influence
boundary issues
slippery slope
insofar as psychological terms
and for your own safety you need to learn about borderline personalities.

 

[JLR80]

I am concerned that you didn't cover this subject in your training, wasn't there either a "law" course or requirement for your student teaching practicum?

No - I've never heard of any of this and neither has any faculty member that I have confided in about this issue. The only thing similar to this that was ever presented in "laws and ethics" during our student teaching practicum were the following:

1. It is unethical and illegal (if sexual) to have any sort of inappropriate relationship with a CURRENT student. As student teachers and future teachers we were of course advised against "hanging out" with students, etc too. In layman's terms this means you don't date a student and you don't pal around with a student, period.

2. Sexual immorality (homosexuality/adultery/public indecency/etc.) can get you dismissed IF and only IF it impacts your ability to teach, and commission of a serious crime can get you dismissed as well. I do remember discussing the case of a teacher in FL who was fired for working as a stripper but was able to win the case and get reinstated.

That's it! Believe it or not this is truly all new to me. That's why I'm still trying to understand the whole concept.