How is reverse engineering even legal?

[Jgutta420]

What is the name of your state? FLORIDA


So when someone reverse engineers something, they essentially figure out the components and makeup and reproduce it. Here is the exact definition...

"the reproduction of another manufacturer's product following detailed examination of its construction or composition"

So how is that even legal? That's why you see all that as seen on TV junk. Or theraflu and walflu. Or advil and family wellness. Etc etc... and the It's the exact same thing. In fact, I usually buy the store brands as they are cheaper and work exactly the same because they have the exact same ingredients at the exact same concentration. As far as electronics and such, MAYBE it might be cheaper materials and components but still...SAME THING. So my question is, how does that not violate the patent? Is a patent only for the name of what?

 

[Zigner]

...and the It's the exact same thing.

No, it's not.

In fact, I usually buy the store brands as they are cheaper and work exactly the same because they have the exact same ingredients at the exact same concentration.

No, they don't. VERY similar...yes, but not exact. In fact, my wife has a medication that has generic versions from three different manufacturers. She has adverse reactions to two of them, but not the third. Why? Because they're not exactly the same. The only thing that is the same is the active ingredient.

As far as electronics and such, MAYBE it might be cheaper materials and components but still...SAME THING.

No, it's not.

So my question is, how does that not violate the patent? Is a patent only for the name of what?

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Jgutta420]

No, they don't. VERY similar...yes, but not exact. In fact, my wife has a medication that has generic versions from three different manufacturers. She has adverse reactions to two of them, but not the third. Why? Because they're not exactly the same. The only thing that is the same is the active ingredient.

Yes they do...

Theraflu daytime severe cold and cough ingredients...

Active ingredients:

Acetaminophen 500mg
Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg
Phenylephrine HCI 10 mg

Inactive ingredients:

Acesulfame, potassium, anhydrous citric acid, sodium citrate, red #40, fd&c blue #1, triassic calcium phosphate, aspartame, glycerin, tribasic calcium phosphate, silicon dioxide


Equate daytime severe cold multi-symptom

Active ingredients:

Acetaminophen 500mg
Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg
Phenylephrine HCI 10 mg

Inactive ingredients:

Acesulfame, potassium, anhydrous citric acid, sodium citrate, red #40, fd&c blue #1, triassic calcium phosphate, aspartame, glycerin, tribasic calcium phosphate, silicon dioxide


They are EXACTLY the same.

 

[Zigner]

Yes they do...

Theraflu daytime severe cold and cough ingredients...

Active ingredients:

Acetaminophen 500mg
Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg
Phenylephrine HCI 10 mg

Inactive ingredients:

Acesulfame, potassium, anhydrous citric acid, sodium citrate, red #40, fd&c blue #1, triassic calcium phosphate, aspartame, glycerin, tribasic calcium phosphate, silicon dioxide


Equate daytime severe cold multi-symptom

Active ingredients:

Acetaminophen 500mg
Dextromethorphan HBr 20mg
Phenylephrine HCI 10 mg

Inactive ingredients:

Acesulfame, potassium, anhydrous citric acid, sodium citrate, red #40, fd&c blue #1, triassic calcium phosphate, aspartame, glycerin, tribasic calcium phosphate, silicon dioxide


They are EXACTLY the same.

...in what concentrations?

EDIT: I'm not sure where you got your ingredient listings from, but for the Equate product you named, it is not correct.

 

[Taxing Matters]

What is the name of your state? FLORIDA


So when someone reverse engineers something, they essentially figure out the components and makeup and reproduce it. Here is the exact definition...

"the reproduction of another manufacturer's product following detailed examination of its construction or composition"

So how is that even legal?

Reverse engineering itself, i.e. finding out how something is made, is generally not illegal and certainly not a violation of patent law. It's perfectly legal to find out what the components are of something. It is violation of patent law to make something that includes a component that is covered by a patent if you are not the patent holder and do not have license from the patent holder.

All patents have a limited life. In general, patents last for 20 years. When it comes to drugs, though, there is also an exclusivity period upon approval of the drug by the FDA. The length of the exclusivity period depends on the class of drug, but all are shorter than the patent period. Not all new drugs get a patent or get exclusivity. But once a drug is no longer covered by either a patent or the exclusivity period than anyone may make the exact same thing and sell it if they want. And that is exactly what happens with generic drugs. Once the patent and/or exclusivity periods expire, generic manufacturers step in and market products that are, if not identical, very close to the original brand name. And that's perfectly legal.

 

[quincy]

What is the name of your state? FLORIDA


So when someone reverse engineers something, they essentially figure out the components and makeup and reproduce it. Here is the exact definition...

"the reproduction of another manufacturer's product following detailed examination of its construction or composition"

So how is that even legal? That's why you see all that as seen on TV junk. Or theraflu and walflu. Or advil and family wellness. Etc etc... and the It's the exact same thing. In fact, I usually buy the store brands as they are cheaper and work exactly the same because they have the exact same ingredients at the exact same concentration. As far as electronics and such, MAYBE it might be cheaper materials and components but still...SAME THING. So my question is, how does that not violate the patent? Is a patent only for the name of what?

It is not illegal to reduce a product to its simplest parts and reconstruct it. That is all reverse engineering is.

Its biggest impact probably is on trade secrets. Anything learned about a product through examination of the product and its parts becomes public domain information.

You are able to reverse engineer a product and create your own products and you will not be illegally misappropriating any trade secrets by doing so.

That said, there can be patent infringement claimed if the two products are sufficiently equivalent and there was intentional direct copying of a product protected by a patent.

 

[FlyingRon]

Yes, once things are disclosed (by being distributed to the public) is a patent (and that needs to be obtained prior to the discloure).
That's just the way thnigs work. Nothing keeps me from selling Fried Chicken. I could even spend a lot of time trying to recreate Col. Sanders's 11 herbs and spices on my own. Now, what I couldn't do is break into the KFC headquarters and steal the recipe or bribe a KFC employee into disclosing it to me. That as Q points out are trade secret violations.

Drugs, are a completely different matter. There are definite rules the FDA mandates (even for OTC stuff). FIrst off, many drugs get patent protection so they are disclosed (this is what a patent does for you, you get a period of exclusivity for disclosing your invention). But a patent doesn't mean you can sell your drug. You have to submit a NDA with the FDA showing your drug is safe and effective. Even without a patent, the FDA grants a person taking a drug through the NDA process a period of exclusivity (3-7 years).

As the new drug exclusivity period and/or patents expire, anybody can submit an ANDA for their "generic" version of the same thing. As far as the active ingredients go, it's not so much a coincidence but a requirement that they be the same as the original.

 

[quincy]

There was an interesting trade secret case involving Coke and Pepsi.

Employees at Coke stole confidential Coke documents and tried to sell the documents to Pepsi for $1.5 million.

The employees did not get the praise and compensation expected.

Pepsi told Coke about the trade secret theft and three individuals were arrested and convicted and ordered to pay restitution to Coke. They served time in federal prison for their crimes.

 

[cbg]

Getting back to medications, there's more involved that just ingredients. I know of one medication, taken by a close family member, where the delivery system is different. The brand name has a slower controlled release into the system, whereas the generic is immediate. Never mind that the ingredients are the same; this difference means that my family member must take the brand name as the quick release offered by the generic would cause an adverse affect with his other meds, while the slower release does not.

 

[quincy]

Getting back to medications, there's more involved that just ingredients. I know of one medication, taken by a close family member, where the delivery system is different. The brand name has a slower controlled release into the system, whereas the generic is immediate. Never mind that the ingredients are the same; this difference means that my family member must take the brand name as the quick release offered by the generic would cause an adverse affect with his other meds, while the slower release does not.

That is the case with a lot of drugs.

The reverse to your example is also true - where only the generic version of the drug is safe and effective for the patient.

 

[cbg]

Exactly.

 

[quincy]

Exactly.

When patents expire, it can open up whole new drug treatments for patients.

A drug manufacturer can still modify or improve on a patented product and market the modified/improved product with the original patent holder's permission. A slower release drug is an example.

These modifications or improvements can on their own be granted a patent but to commercially exploit the modified/improved product, the creator of the new product must license rights to use the original patent.

 

[stealth2]

Also... Some Off-brands/generics (often store brands) are manufactured by the same company that manufactures the name brand, just with a different name/packaging (Kenmore comes to mind). With others, the source of the parts/ingredients matters, especially with drugs. Binders, fillers, etc. often differ by manufacturer.

 

[quincy]

Also... Some Off-brands/generics (often store brands) are manufactured by the same company that manufactures the name brand, just with a different name/packaging (Kenmore comes to mind). With others, the source of the parts/ingredients matters, especially with drugs. Binders, fillers, etc. often differ by manufacturer.

It can be pretty complex. That is why patent attorneys are so well paid.

 

[Taxing Matters]

It can be pretty complex. That is why patent attorneys are so well paid.

That and patent attorneys need more than just passing the state bar to represent clients in proceedings before the USPTO. They are required to (1) have specialized science and technical qualifications in addition to their legal qualifications and (2) must sit for a specialized patent examination administered by the USPTO. So far as I know, patent lawyers are the only attorneys required to pass a specialized exam prior to representing clients before any federal agency or court. Many patent lawyers have PhDs in some scientific or technical field. So you are paying for not only legal expertise, but that scientific/technical expertise, too.

Tax lawyers have a different challenge. We don't sit for any specialized exam, but most firms and agencies that hire tax lawyers, including notably the IRS, do require that a tax lawyer they hire have a LL.M degree in taxation. For those not familiar with it, the LL.M stands for Master of Laws (the double LL indicates the plural "laws", in the archaic realm of degree titles) and is an additional law degree beyond the basic JD (or LL.B degree for lawyers who went to law school many years ago) that all lawyers get. It is one of the few areas of law in which a LL.M is essentially mandatory. Why? Because tax law is also quite complex, and it changes all the time. That's what makes it fun. We don't get what patent lawyers do, though I wish we did.