How to get Union to release us before first contract. HELP!

[frustrated_3]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

I work for a municipally run community center in a small/med. city. The employees of the center have been trying to form a union for the past year as the city has been slowly taking away benefits. Unfortunately we chose poorly and the union we went with has done very little in the past year to get us to a contract. The only meeting we had with the other side ended when they noted that we were not ready to negotiate and that the meeting could not proceed. They were correct. Our rep had not drawn up any real proposal.

We have since been given a new rep, although we were not told why. This new rep does not seem to be interested in helping us and the relationship is becoming difficult. They are putting in the bare minimum to push a contract through that we don't want/isn't finished. Our questions don't get answered, our requests don't get added to the contract, details are forgotten...you get the idea. We have lost trust in this union.

We would like to try a different union. We have contacted PERC and they say we are in a decent place to do so from their standpoint. The issue is the AFL-CIO bylaws. We have been told by the union we would like to represent us that they cannot do so unless the current one "releases" us completely and chooses not to work with us.

My question is...how to do this? I'm not sure they will let us go and I don't know how to ask. It astounds me that they will insist on representing a group that they clearly don't care about but I believe that's the way they will go since they are losing another group in a different department of the city

 

[Zigner]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? NJ

I work for a municipally run community center in a small/med. city. The employees of the center have been trying to form a union for the past year as the city has been slowly taking away benefits. Unfortunately we chose poorly and the union we went with has done very little in the past year to get us to a contract. The only meeting we had with the other side ended when they noted that we were not ready to negotiate and that the meeting could not proceed. They were correct. Our rep had not drawn up any real proposal.

We have since been given a new rep, although we were not told why. This new rep does not seem to be interested in helping us and the relationship is becoming difficult. They are putting in the bare minimum to push a contract through that we don't want/isn't finished. Our questions don't get answered, our requests don't get added to the contract, details are forgotten...you get the idea. We have lost trust in this union.

We would like to try a different union. We have contacted PERC and they say we are in a decent place to do so from their standpoint. The issue is the AFL-CIO bylaws. We have been told by the union we would like to represent us that they cannot do so unless the current one "releases" us completely and chooses not to work with us.

My question is...how to do this? I'm not sure they will let us go and I don't know how to ask. It astounds me that they will insist on representing a group that they clearly don't care about but I believe that's the way they will go since they are losing another group in a different department of the city

What did the union folks say when you asked them about this?

 

[frustrated_3]

What did the union folks say when you asked them about this?

The union we want to go with say they cannot recommend exactly how to ask to be released as they can't look like they are going after another union's group. Bylaws again. They have said they will take us if we can manage getting released. They do agree that our current union shouldn't WANT to work with a group who is basically unhappy with them.

And p.s., we are a small number of workers. They are not making big money on us.

I did just get an email from the current rep requesting we get health benefit info and salary info for all employees. Are we supposed to do that!? Or are they? Seems odd for me to request my coworkers salary info.

This is a mess but my biggest fear is having no represenation at all...I think. 😦

 

[Zigner]

The union we want to go with say they cannot recommend exactly how to ask to be released as they can't look like they are going after another union's group. Bylaws again. They have said they will take us if we can manage getting released. They do agree that our current union shouldn't WANT to work with a group who is basically unhappy with them.

And p.s., we are a small number of workers. They are not making big money on us.

I did just get an email from the current rep requesting we get health benefit info and salary info for all employees. Are we supposed to do that!? Or are they? Seems odd for me to request my coworkers salary info.

This is a mess but my biggest fear is having no represenation at all...I think. 

You will need to speak with the current union and ask them to release you.

 

[justalayman]

The other union is absolutely correct. They can be fined large sums of money for attempting to get a group that is already represented by a union to switch unions.


Start with contacting the nlrb. They Are the government agency that oversees union operations

To change unions is tough to do. Basically the first Union has to be decertified and the new union voted in. There is a period where there is no union and if the "new" union doesn't get voted in on a first for vote it can become a real struggle to get any union back in.

If you do not hold an office in your local you should not be collecting information for the union. They should have an official union rep doing what they told you to do.


Now there is also another action that might be possible here. It is possible for a single member or a group to sue their own union for "failure to represent"

None of this should be tackled with a legal advisor. None of it should be undertaken without the ramifications of the action being known before anybody acts.

 

[frustrated_3]

You will need to speak with the current union and ask them to release you.

Yes, the question was how..wording, approach, etc. to provide the hoped for outcome.

 

[justalayman]

I can't recall ever hearing a union simply terminating their representation.

 

[Zigner]

I can't recall ever hearing a union simply terminating their representation.

It does sound as if it would be a little out of character.

 

[frustrated_3]

The other union is absolutely correct. They can be fined large sums of money for attempting to get a group that is already represented by a union to switch unions.


Start with contacting the nlrb. They Are the government agency that oversees union operations

To change unions is tough to do. Basically the first Union has to be decertified and the new union voted in. There is a period where there is no union and if the "new" union doesn't get voted in on a first for vote it can become a real struggle to get any union back in.

If you do not hold an office in your local you should not be collecting information for the union. They should have an official union rep doing what they told you to do.


Now there is also another action that might be possible here. It is possible for a single member or a group to sue their own union for "failure to represent"

None of this should be tackled with a legal advisor. None of it should be undertaken without the ramifications of the action being known before anybody acts.

Thanks for your response.

I believe the lead person in our group did go to the nlrb and they told her to go to perc. I have to confirm this and maybe contact them again. Perc seemed to think that since we aren't technically "in" the union, that it would be easier, but only slightly. If we already had a contract, it would be a three year wait to join a different afl-cio union. i think they called it de-authorization, instead of decertification. I don't think any of us have the funds to sue and since we're not technically in the union yet, would this apply?

I am concerned about moving ahead with a union who consistently shows no commitment to our employees.

Thanks again.

 

[justalayman]

What do you mean you aren't "in" the union". Either the union is representing you or they aren't. If they are representing you you are "in" the union. If you are not in the union they have no place to represent you in negotiations.

Having a contract between the employer and the union/members is a different issue.

It's decertification.


Ok, simply put: was there a vote where the employees voted to accept the union as their authorized representation of not?


Here is a link;

https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employees/i-am-represented-union/decertification-election

 

[frustrated_3]

What do you mean you aren't "in" the union". Either the union is representing you or they aren't. If they are representing you you are "in" the union. If you are not in the union they have no place to represent you in negotiations.

Having a contract between the employer and the union/members is a different issue.

It's decertification.


Ok, simply put: was there a vote where the employees voted to accept the union as their authorized representation of not?


Here is a link;

https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/whats-law/employees/i-am-represented-union/decertification-election

I was under the impression we had to be paying dues/have a contract, etc. to be considered "in". Of course, this is all new to me so I'm learning as I go.

Cards were signed, we had enough of a percentage and the municipality accepted our move to unionize (i forget the wording) so a vote was not needed.

 

[justalayman]

If over 50% of the possible member submit cards calling for a union yes, you would be correct no vote would be required.

The union is now your authorized exclusive representative. I understand your statement concerning being in the union though. Correct, until there is a contract you are not in the union where you pay dues but you are represented by the union and must decertify them if you want to get rid of the union you now have.

Did you check out the link? It provides some dates that are very important if you are considering decertifying the current union.

The first important time period is you cannot vote to decertify the union within 1 year of them being certified. If you voted in the union less than a year ago,, your're stuck.

Then if a contract is signed, your stuck for 3 years more (although near the end you can take action toward the decertifying)

So, has it been less than a year?

 

[frustrated_3]

If over 50% of the possible member submit cards calling for a union yes, you would be correct no vote would be required.

The union is now your authorized exclusive representative. I understand your statement concerning being in the union though. Correct, until there is a contract you are not in the union where you pay dues but you are represented by the union and must decertify them if you want to get rid of the union you now have.

Did you check out the link? It provides some dates that are very important if you are considering decertifying the current union.

The first important time period is you cannot vote to decertify the union within 1 year of them being certified. If you voted in the union less than a year ago,, your're stuck.

Then if a contract is signed, your stuck for 3 years more (although near the end you can take action toward the decertifying)

So, has it been less than a year?

I did see the link.

I would have to look up the exact date. We are not at a year yet but it is quickly approaching. I believe card signing was February as the impetus for all this was part time workers having holiday pay taken away right before thanksgiving/xmas 2014.

We did ask/inform all employers and they support decertifying but I know they have not seen the risks the negotiating group is finding.

 

[justalayman]

I have to make a correction

PERC would be the agency rather that the nlrb involved here. Due to being a public employee, in New Jersey, they have jurisdiction over your situation.


I'll see what I can see that may be different than the nlrb rules

 

[frustrated_3]

I have to make a correction

PERC would be the agency rather that the nlrb involved here. Due to being a public employee, in New Jersey, they have jurisdiction over your situation.


I'll see what I can see that may be different than the nlrb rules

Just looked through my old emails. Perc seems to say that we can certify one union and decertify the other at the same vote. The biggest issue is the afl-cio bylaws. I believe it's this one: http://www.aflcio.org/About/Exec-Council/AFL-CIO-Constitution/XXI.Organizing-Responsibility-Procedures

section 2.

I guess we could look for non afl-cio unions. I'm not sure the Teamsters would want us.