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I owe some medical bills

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elkidi

Junior Member
What is the name of your state?Wisconsin

About three years ago I got the flu and was very sick...I ended up driving to the hospital 3am and visiting the emergency ward for treatment

They took ONE X-Ray...I was given a small aerosol cannister of some medicine(to help me breath without coughing)...I saw a doctor for 1/2 an hour and he gave me a shot and a prescription that I filled elsewhere...I was then sent on my way...I lived

A couple of weeks later I get a bill for $1400...I had no insurance and no way could I pay that much at the time...in fact the details on the bill showed I was given three X-Rays...that the medicine I was prescribed was filled by the hospital and that I saw the doctor for almost two hours...none of these things were true

I called them and complained and they in essence told me to go fly a kite but not before I paid them in full...I kept calling them until they finally tell me the matter has been sent to their collection agency

So now I get a call from the CA and I explain the problem(I have the money and I definitely am grateful for the care the hospital DID give me but I wasn't inclined to pay this inflated bill)...the guy I spoke to went over each item and listened to me when I told him exactly where it is wrong and where it is correct

That was about three years ago...after that call they never contacted me again until a month ago...we went over much the same things yet again and I tell them I am willing to go to court about this...I can't believe a judge would allow them to double and on a part of the bill to triple bill me

I know going to the Emergency room is more expensive but as I said this was at 3am and I was the ONLY patient they had at the time(this part is probably just a feeble rationalization on my part right?) but $1400?!?(this was the bill BEFORE going to collection)

The collection people have been calling me a couple of times a week and apparently there is someone new handling the account since they have no idea of what they and I had talked about before...they want the full $1400 and no excuses

At first I told them what I told the first guy ...take me to court and let a judge decide if I owe that much...I am NOT disputing I do owe SOMETHING and if we can work something out I am willing to pay them on the spot

I know eventually it is their option to go to court and force a judgement on me but I was wondering do I have this same option? I do not owe anyone else on Earth and this really bothers me...I'd like to get it settled one way or another as soon as possible
 


TigerD

Senior Member
elkidi said:
... the bill showed I was given three X-Rays...that the medicine I was prescribed was filled by the hospital and that I saw the doctor for almost two hours...none of these things were true
The time you actually see doctor is not all the time you are billed for. The doctor still has to transcribe your symptoms, treatment and response. There is a lot of paperwork there to cover his butt if you suddenly die or decide to sue for malpractice -- that costs you.

elkidi said:
I called them .....I kept calling them until they finally tell me the matter has been sent to their collection agency

So now I get a call from the CA and I explain the problem
A verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on -- I would imagine a verbal complaint to be worth less.

elkidi said:
That was about three years ago...after that call they never contacted me again until a month ago...we went over much the same things yet again and I tell them I am willing to go to court about this...I can't believe a judge would allow them to double and on a part of the bill to triple bill me
You think getting charged for two x-rays was expensive -- wait til you see the court fees, attorney fees and collection costs added to the lawsuit. Not to mention the interest the court will apply retroactively. EVEN IF THE JUDGE DISALLOWS THE EXTRA TWO X-RAYS -- you are going to pay far more than that if this gets to court.

elkidi said:
I know going to the Emergency room is more expensive but as I said this was at 3am and I was the ONLY patient they had at the time(this part is probably just a feeble rationalization on my part right?)
Yup

elkidi said:
The collection people have been calling me a couple of times a week and apparently there is someone new handling the account since they have no idea of what they and I had talked about before...they want the full $1400 and no excuses
Well duh? The collector doesn't care about the individual sob story -- we hear them all day long. And not to be rude but the bill is wrong so I'm not paying anything is the most common evasion I hear.

elkidi said:
At first I told them what I told the first guy ...take me to court and let a judge decide if I owe that much...I am NOT disputing I do owe SOMETHING and if we can work something out I am willing to pay them on the spot

I know eventually it is their option to go to court and force a judgement on me but I was wondering do I have this same option? I do not owe anyone else on Earth and this really bothers me...I'd like to get it settled one way or another as soon as possible
So pay it.

DC
 

elkidi

Junior Member
debtcollector` said:
So pay it.

DC
Here's the thing...I thought I was clear but I'll get more detailed...I checked at the time and at the hospital I went to they charge about $100 for a chest x-ray...the inhaler the doctor gave me I checked online and found out the hospital charges about $40(or less)...he gave me a injection which as far as I remember they were giving out like candy(my area had a lot of people getting this flu) and were charging about $30(or less) to everyone who showed up for it...he did examine me(listened to my lungs and took blood pressure(like they always do no matter why you are there)) and he prescribed but did NOT provide some type of medication(I filled this at a 24 hour drug store nearby)...this medication was NOT supposed to be included on my bill

On the individual prices I added about $10 to each item just to be generous and I'm STILL only at...let's round it up and say it's $200 plus the doctor fee plus emergency room fee...I can't believe they charge another $1200 for those two things

Anyway you look at it they greatly overcharged me

If you are really a debt collector then I suppose you've heard every excuse under the Sun why someone doesn't pay up but I have absolutely no reason to lie to you about any of this...my original thought was to insist they take this to court so I can explain to a judge exactly what I'm telling you here and now

I simply cannot believe I'd end up paying the whole $1400 plus court costs and lawyer fees if a judge heard my story and saw the bill himself

BTW The first time I talked to the collection guy three years ago and we went over the bill even HE agreed with me something was messed up...like I said I didn't hear from them again until years later and then it was a different person who called and this guy had NO interest in anything I had to say except when I was paying the entire bill
 

TigerD

Senior Member
elkidi said:
On the individual prices I added about $10 to each item just to be generous and I'm STILL only at...let's round it up and say it's $200 plus the doctor fee plus emergency room fee...I can't believe they charge another $1200 for those two things

I simply cannot believe I'd end up paying the whole $1400 plus court costs and lawyer fees if a judge heard my story and saw the bill himself

BTW The first time I talked to the collection guy three years ago and we went over the bill even HE agreed with me something was messed up...like I said I didn't hear from them again until years later and then it was a different person who called and this guy had NO interest in anything I had to say except when I was paying the entire bill
Yes I have heard every excuse, although occasionally a new one comes around.

I'm not interested in arguing the validity of the charges. I haven't seen the bill. The collector you spoke with isn't interested in anything but when you are going to pay. The collector isn't going to tell his client, "You guys screwed up. Fix this bill or I won't collect on it." Instead the collector is thinking there is a process for disputing inncorrect bills both before and after they arrive at a collection agency and this guy isn't following that process. Therefore what he says, other than reading checking account numbers, is noise.

On a personal note-- How can you expect a 3am emergency room visit (I assume you mean an ER with a full staff, nurses, clerks, doctors and equipment) to cost the same as an afternoon visit to your family physician?

If I was as sick as it sounded like you were, I wouldn't care about the price -- just living and getting better.

DC
 
Just FYI...its pointless to take guidance from an admitted debt collector. They lie just for practice and conviently leave out any details that might be counter productive to their cause...which is, after all, ONLY for you to send them a check.

Here's some advice from a debtor.

1. Don't talk to anybody on the phone. They're trained to intimidate you into doing things you don't need to do...and would lie about their mother's maiden name if it would get you to put the check in the mail.

2. Just because you owed a hospital some money doesn't mean that the CA's you've been talking to have the right person, the right account, the right amount, or even the right to collect in your state. You need to follow the "debt validation" process (see www.creditinfocenter.com discussion boards for info).

3. If the account has been "written off / sold to another lender" then you're really dealing with a junk debt buyer. The hospital as already been compensated for their "loss" by the US taxpayer, and the JDB paid them pennies on the dollar for the right to hassle you. You may have felt a moral obligation to pay the hospital something, but you don't owe the same feeling to a JDB.

4. Wisconsin has some very consumer friendly laws regarding collections in the state. For example, any debt that is beyond the statue of limitations is not only judgement proof, but uncollectable AND unreportable. I'm not certain what the SOL is for medical billing, but if this were a credit card, it would be 3 years.
 

elkidi

Junior Member
I suspect we aren't going to agree on this since you know all the "processes" for dealing with this type of situation and I have never even had a credit card in my life and have NEVER owed anyone anything ever...until this medical bill

I did what I felt was necessary by keeping in contact with the hospital and trying to show them they had made a mistake somehow and when that didn't work I took all the calls from the CC and tried to explain what was going on to them too

BTW Part of my reason for thinking the visit to the ER oughtn't be that much more expensive is when I got there without calling ahead there was only two clerks(one of whom had solitaire on her computer screen)..there was no doctors or nurses or any other people there at all...once the lady took my info down she had to call a doctor from elsewhere in the hospital to come down to see me...I was the ONLY patient

He does his BP testing and listening to my lungs..sent me to get x-rayed and minutes later gave me the standard paraphernalia and prescription for the flu and I was out of there within 30 minutes and this is supposed to cost $1400?

Believe me though I am and always will be grateful for even that amount of care..I was very sick

Anyway none of this really matters...you can think I'm full of baloney and none of what I'm telling you is true...what I really want to know is if I can force the issue somehow to get them to take me to court so I can explain in person to a judge what I've just told you? Or is there some other thing I can try? Is it possible to talk to someone in charge at the CC and maybe get the bill taken down a bit so I don't feel like I am being gouged quite as much? What about those companies I see advertised on TV all the time that supposedly act as an mediator between the creditor and the person and get the amount owed lowered somehow?

Look I'm not a kid...I'm in my mid forties and I never up to now have owed anyone anything...I don't much care for the feeling of owing someone either...damn it I'm pissed off that the hospital hadn't just corrected their bill at the time and I'd of paid them back then and I wouldn't be going through all this now

BTW I just hunted up the bill and here's something I never mentioned before...according to that bill they are claiming not only did I get three x-rays but they had three different doctors examine me too...not to mention the medicine they say they gave me when I actually filled the prescription somewhere else

I REALLY suspect someone somewhere accidently checked the "He has insurance" box and so they loaded my bill up with whatever they could figuring no one would be checking the bill

I appreciate your responding to my posts...this has given me valuable insight into how CCs think...I'm in a foreign situation and I'm just desperately trying not to get screwed over too much
 
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TigerD

Senior Member
I understand you are upset. The point I made in my first response is that you have been communicating by phone -- You MUST respond to things like this in writing.

Let's talk about frankly about the situation:
1. You used the emergency room and incurred a debt.
2. You disagree with the hospital regarding the amount of the debt you owe.
3. You haven't paid what you consider to be fair charges to the hospital in the last three years.
4. You haven't disputed the charges in writing with either the hospital or the CA.

You have the right to disagree all you want. If you truly do want this to go to court the judge is going ask why you didn't pay the portion of the bill you agree you owe to the hospital when it was due and dispute the rest.

I'm sorry to say to say I don't see your defense here. My single point is if you do insist on this going to court, you are going to pay far more than the $1400 in question if the judge grants the judgement.

DC
 

elkidi

Junior Member
debtcollector

I have never received anything in writing from the collection agency...they have only called me(I DO have the original bill from the hospital though)

As to the fact I never paid them anything despite acknowledging I do owe them(hospital) some money...I was not aware I could do this(give them approximately what I feel I owe them and contest the rest)...in none of the conversations with anybody either from the hospital or the CA no one ever told me this until YOU did just now

Hell if I was actively avoiding paying what is due that's one thing but I was calling them myself and not just waiting for them to call me in an effort to settle this

I don't know if this counts but I did fax the CA a copy of the bill I got from the hospital(to make sure we both were talking about the same thing) with a a item by item list of everything I said was incorrect on the bill(that was why the first man I talked to agreed with me something was wrong with the bill)...even after doing this he never told me to pay the amount I figured I owed and we could argue about the rest of the bill

To date the CA has never sent me a letter about any of this(they have my address and have had it the entire time)

You say I have no real defense for not paying even when I think I can prove the original bill was inflated...at the time I was sick many many others got that same flu and many of them came in to the same hospital for the same treatment...I doubt very much any of the other people were charged for three doctors and three x-rays...I suspect they had a standard set of things they do for someone who came in with the flu and it was pretty much exactly what they did for me(not what they put on the bill)...the ONLY thing different was I came into the ER at 3am and while I expect this might make some difference I cannot believe they are justified in tacking on another $1000

Can you imagine the uproar if everyone who got the flu that year had been charged $1400?

You say going to court might cost me even more than what they say I owe now but that of course assumes I lose

I know given your occupation your natural inclination is to assume I'm a big fat liar and deadbeat but I have no reason to lie about this situation to YOU...I need your honest reaction to my situation as it will help me in dealing with the actual CA so I can end this once and for all
 
Next time they call, tell them that you will only deal with them in writing. I believe it is the law that they must contact you in writing anyways the first time.

Stop answering their calls. Send any mail to them CRRR. Don't worry about it. Debt collectors will try anything to get you to pay them money. Make them send it in writing. If they refuse, then they have no leg to stand on, and you can tell them to go fly a kite.
 

TigerD

Senior Member
loki_racer said:
Next time they call, tell them that you will only deal with them in writing. I believe it is the law that they must contact you in writing anyways the first time.

Stop answering their calls. Send any mail to them CRRR. Don't worry about it. Debt collectors will try anything to get you to pay them money. Make them send it in writing. If they refuse, then they have no leg to stand on, and you can tell them to go fly a kite.
Actually the FDCPA requires a letter within 5 days of first contact.

If you are going only deal with in writing -- why say it over the phone?

loki_racer said:
If they refuse, then they have no leg to stand on, and you can tell them to go fly a kite.
No you can't!!! If you send the CA a letter requiring all contact be in writing and they call, you cannot choose to ignore the debt. You have options under the FDCPA -- but ignoring your debt is not one of them.

elkidi --
I don't think you are lying. I think you have gone about this wrong way from the start. My honest reaction is that the CA doesn't care about your situation. They are collectioning on the debt for their client. You will read in other posts on this site people saying the CA has to prove you are responsible for the debt. Sometimes it is hard to get all the paperwork from the OC and we have to drop the collection. In this case you sent them the paperwork to validate the debt -- they didn't even have to go to the OC. You don't dispute the debt is yours, you just think the OC overcharged you. The hospital has the documentation proving their case -- you have your memory from 3 years ago. Your memory from while you were extremely sick, sick enough to go to an emergency room at 3 a.m..

I feel for you. But you are not going to win this one -- especially when you are giving the CA the paperwork to prove their case against you.

DC
 

elkidi

Junior Member
debtcollector

On one hand you are telling me to deal with them in writing and one the other you say if I do this it will give the CA ammunition to use against me

*argh*

I think you think I want to weasel out of the entire bill and I don't...I readily admit to you and to them I owe the hospital for the services I received and I want to pay them for those services...what I do not want to do is pay for services I didn't receive...when I faxed the CA the bill with an item by item list of things wrong with it I stand by that paper if they feel like using it in court

BTW Yes I was really sick when I drove in to the hospital that night but not so sick I don't know how many doctors I saw nor did I imagine the fact I had to go to the all night drug store to fill the prescription I was given...besides like I said I couldn't possibly be the only person who came to the hospital because of the flu that season and I bet anything the hospital has a standard set of things they do when someone comes in for the flu...what possible reason could they have to claim I saw THREE doctors that night or got THREE x-rays? Did everyone who came in get billed the same thing?
 
elkidi said:
BTW Part of my reason for thinking the visit to the ER oughtn't be that much more expensive is when I got there without calling ahead there was only two clerks(one of whom had solitaire on her computer screen)..there was no doctors or nurses or any other people there at all...once the lady took my info down she had to call a doctor from elsewhere in the hospital to come down to see me...I was the ONLY patient

He does his BP testing and listening to my lungs..sent me to get x-rayed and minutes later gave me the standard paraphernalia and prescription for the flu and I was out of there within 30 minutes and this is supposed to cost $1400?
I am not passing judgment here, but this is irrelevant. This may not be irrelevant to you, but how much you think it should have cost is irrelevant to everybody else, including the CA.

elkidi said:
Anyway none of this really matters...you can think I'm full of baloney and none of what I'm telling you is true...what I really want to know is if I can force the issue somehow to get them to take me to court so I can explain in person to a judge what I've just told you? Or is there some other thing I can try? Is it possible to talk to someone in charge at the CC and maybe get the bill taken down a bit so I don't feel like I am being gouged quite as much? What about those companies I see advertised on TV all the time that supposedly act as an mediator between the creditor and the person and get the amount owed lowered somehow?

Look I'm not a kid...I'm in my mid forties and I never up to now have owed anyone anything...I don't much care for the feeling of owing someone either...damn it I'm pissed off that the hospital hadn't just corrected their bill at the time and I'd of paid them back then and I wouldn't be going through all this now

BTW I just hunted up the bill and here's something I never mentioned before...according to that bill they are claiming not only did I get three x-rays but they had three different doctors examine me too...not to mention the medicine they say they gave me when I actually filled the prescription somewhere else

I REALLY suspect someone somewhere accidently checked the "He has insurance" box and so they loaded my bill up with whatever they could figuring no one would be checking the bill

First of all, I am not a debt collector of any kind. Actually, I think they are scumbags. Second of all, your comment about insurance is incorrect. The fact that you didn’t have health insurance probably resulted in a larger bill. Basically, health insurance companies negotiate lower charges with hospitals. So if you have insurance you will actually pay less than the people who are uninsured. If you are wondering why this is, it’s because an insurance company has bargaining power. They represent many patients (prospective customers), whereas an uninsured patient only represents himself/herself, thus no bargaining power. Therefore, a hospital can (and will) charge an uninsured patient more. Now thirdly, I think you are mistaken when you say that your visit should cost $200-$400. That’s what a regular doctor visit costs, depending on the visit plus lab work. Truth is, I have gotten bills for doctor visits for well over $400. Now you bet that it’s going to cost a lot more to go to the ER (this last statement is just merely my opinion, thus once again irrelevant). And finally the facts, the truth is you agreed to pay for services rendered to you. You received a bill that you didn’t agree with. Then you ignored it. Now, no one can tell you if you will get sued. That is a decision that will be made by those who own your debt. It might be possible that they will bother you some more for the next couple of years and then the SOL will expire. On the other hand, you might not get so lucky and you could get sued. The way CA’s are operating lately it is highly probable that this will happen. CA’s have become more aggressive and if they took you to court they would more than likely win. The truth is no one is going to care if you think the charges should have been less. That is something you should have disputed immediately after receiving the bill and paid the final agreed amount. You didn’t do that, now you are dealing with a CA that only cares that you owe the money. The CA doesn’t care if the charges are correct (what you are arguing); they just care that you owe the debt (assuming they bought the debt from the hospital) because they own the rights to the debt. This is basically the unbiased truth. Good Luck.
 

elkidi

Junior Member
toughluck73 said:
I am not passing judgment here, but this is irrelevant. This may not be irrelevant to you, but how much you think it should have cost is irrelevant to everybody else, including the CA.




First of all, I am not a debt collector of any kind. Actually, I think they are scumbags. Second of all, your comment about insurance is incorrect. The fact that you didn’t have health insurance probably resulted in a larger bill. Basically, health insurance companies negotiate lower charges with hospitals. So if you have insurance you will actually pay less than the people who are uninsured. If you are wondering why this is, it’s because an insurance company has bargaining power. They represent many patients (prospective customers), whereas an uninsured patient only represents himself/herself, thus no bargaining power. Therefore, a hospital can (and will) charge an uninsured patient more. Now thirdly, I think you are mistaken when you say that your visit should cost $200-$400. That’s what a regular doctor visit costs, depending on the visit plus lab work. Truth is, I have gotten bills for doctor visits for well over $400. Now you bet that it’s going to cost a lot more to go to the ER (this last statement is just merely my opinion, thus once again irrelevant). And finally the facts, the truth is you agreed to pay for services rendered to you. You received a bill that you didn’t agree with. Then you ignored it. Now, no one can tell you if you will get sued. That is a decision that will be made by those who own your debt. It might be possible that they will bother you some more for the next couple of years and then the SOL will expire. On the other hand, you might not get so lucky and you could get sued. The way CA’s are operating lately it is highly probable that this will happen. CA’s have become more aggressive and if they took you to court they would more than likely win. The truth is no one is going to care if you think the charges should have been less. That is something you should have disputed immediately after receiving the bill and paid the final agreed amount. You didn’t do that, now you are dealing with a CA that only cares that you owe the money. The CA doesn’t care if the charges are correct (what you are arguing); they just care that you owe the debt (assuming they bought the debt from the hospital) because they own the rights to the debt. This is basically the unbiased truth. Good Luck.
I am not now and not then disputing I owe the hospital for services rendered...even if I disagree with how much each service or item I received cost individually I'd grit my teeth and pay it...I am complaining about the part of the bill I disputed IMMEDIATELY to both the hospital and to the CA telling them at the time I did NOT receive THREE x-rays for instance so why should I pay for three? I did NOT get seen by THREE doctors so why should I be charged for three? I filled the prescription given to me elsewhere so why did they charge me for that medicine?

That bill was $1400 with all the EXTRA things added to it that I did NOT receive and for which to my mind I should not be expected to pay

I did NOT ignore anyone..the same day I got the bill I called the hospital to talk to them about it...if I had know I could pay the portion of the bill that covered the services I had actually received I would of done so...how was I supposed to know this? Despite all the talking I did with both the hospital and the CA no one mentioned this option to me

Let me explain somehting..a little over a year ago I needed some oral surgery done and since I have NO credit at all and have NEVER bought a single thing I couldn't pay cash for on the spot I had to hand over to the billing department almost $10000 in CASH before they would even look in my mouth...this is how I do EVERYTHING...so I'm not kidding when I say I have no experience with collection agencies...my car was paid for with cash...I pay my rent a year in advance(in cash) since with no credit(or bad credit) I couldn't even rent where I'm living

The ONLY reason this problem came up is because I was so sick at the time I couldn't think straight or I would of paid them right then and there and if I had seen the incorrect bill I could of pointed it out to them in person...it's one thing to get a bill weeks later with incorrect info on it and quite another to have them give you a bill two minutes after you had just seen the ONE doctor for a half an hour that claims you just saw THREE doctors for TWO hours...that claims you have been given medicine at the hospital that you can PROVE you never received...you see my point?

Even now I am ready and willing to pay for the services I received back then BUT I will fight tooth and nail to avoid paying for things I did NOT recieve
 

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