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I strongly believe my ex-son-in-law and his new wife are trying to alienate the grand kids and children of their mother against us

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GEMGEM

Member
My daughter and her social worker thought it would be a good idea to go to mediation, so my daughter could see her children more (she only saw them 39 hours a year, which includes a 15-minute phone call once a week). Her ex had a lawyer for mediation. My daughter had no one with her. I typed a 42-page booklet with dates, instances, and abuse from her ex. (I kept track in a notebook with dates for years and kept all of her ex's emails). I read that people who are under the ADA should ask for accommodations for mediation. Of course, my daughter didn't know this (or me), and I realize it is her fault that she did not ask. Her ex had a very sneaky lawyer, who made the mediation worse, and most of it related to her illness under the ADA. He made us her supervisors (we were never asked). We have to be with her when she sees the kids for 2 hours, in hearing and visible distance, when she is with the kids (we live a state away). My daughter is doing very well; she has not had a bipolar episode for 4 years. I told her to get letters from her doctor, counselor, nurse, and social worker, but she never did. I would think that if my daughter's disability was such a big part of mediation, she should have been told that she could have assistance. The Lawyer who wrote up the mediation was crude and now making us drive 1200 miles to see our grandchildren. We used to meet halfway with their dad. That was only 600 miles. Now for us, it is 300 there, 300 home, 300 back, and 300 home; it is very crazy. I read that his lawyer was in trouble along with a judge in Minnesota, getting clients to pay them, helping parents get custody, and helping with parent alienation. I found out my daughter's ex had this same lawyer (by mistake). This now lawyer, was learning and doing this, when he was a law clerk under a judge. He later became a lawyer and is with a practice. The money, custody, and alienation case was very well known in Minnesota. I cannot believe that a law clerk was able to become a lawyer and is now practicing what he learned. Everything written in the lawyer's mediation report makes it almost impossible for us or my daughter to see the kids. The kids love seeing their mother and us. They come to our house and don't want to leave. They pack their suitcases 2 weeks before. Now, their dad and his new wife are listening to our phone calls on speaker phone, and lately when we call and the children, we leave a message to call back; no one answers the phone or calls back. Many people are telling us to get a lawyer. Because we are the grandparents we know are rights are limited. We did watch our youngest grandson for 10 months - but is must be 12 months. I feel my daughter needs a new mediation (if possible). I have a copy of their divorce decree and my daughter's ex is in contempt of many decisions that were made. I guess I just don't know what to do. We all became victims and are slowly being eliminated from the children's life. I am afraid they are being brainwashed to forget about us. I know that parent and grandparent alienation is growing and I believe many lawyers are using this practice and teaching their clients what to do; I never would have dreamed that people could do this. I would like suggestions/answers that I discussed above. Thank you.
 


LdiJ

Senior Member
I agree. I think that its probably time to stop with mediation and get things in front of a judge.

However GemGem you are wrong about lawyers encouraging or teaching parents to commit alienation. They would have no motivation to do that and it could cause serious harm to their clients.
 

commentator

Senior Member
.Quote: " I typed a 42-page booklet with dates, instances, and abuse from her ex. (I kept track in a notebook with dates for years and kept all of her ex's emails). I read that people who are under the ADA should ask for accommodations for mediation. Of course, my daughter didn't know this (or me), and I realize it is her fault that she did not ask. Her ex had a very sneaky lawyer, who made the mediation worse, and most of it related to her illness under the ADA. He made us her supervisors (we were never asked). We have to be with her when she sees the kids for 2 hours, in hearing and visible distance, when she is with the kids (we live a state away). My daughter is doing very well; she has not had a bipolar episode for 4 years. I told her to get letters from her doctor, counselor, nurse, and social worker, but she never did. I would think that if my daughter's disability was such a big part of mediation, she should have been told that she could have assistance. The Lawyer who wrote up the mediation was crude and now making us drive 1200 miles to see our grandchildren. We used to meet halfway with their dad. That was only 600 miles. Now for us, it is 300 there, 300 home, 300 back, and 300 home; it is very crazy."

If your daughter went into mediation alone with her ex and his attorney with a 42 page booklet of dates instances and examples of abuse from her ex which you'd (her mother) had kept for years (and all her emails) it is little wonder she came out with less visitation, more supervision required, etc. Did she have an attorney at this time?

I'm having a hard time exactly figuring out what all happened here, except that now you have to drive both ways to pick up the kids, your daughter's phone calls with the kids are being monitored and you feel you and your daughter are being forced out and 'parental alienated' out of your grandchildren's lives.

I think a good family court attorney would be a very good use of your money and time. Let this attorney do the talking. Throw out all your rantings about parental alienation and this no good Minnesota attorney who was found out to be doing all this evil stuff and your ex son in law's attorney who probably learned it all from him. Parental alienation got to be a trendy thing back twenty years or so, it's getting to the point now that it screams somebody who's been lawing on the internet and thinks they've got the terms down. Of course people trash the ex, it's what people do in divorces and custody situations, and it has been going on since time began. What the court is going to be looking for is what will be in the best interests of the child.(ren).

If you guys come across as a custody party where somebody in the group is possibly mentally ill, is so incompetent that her parents helicopter over her up to and including reading all her emails and preparing 42 page manuals documenting her abuse for her mediation sessions, carry her to and from all visitations, and spend a lot of time worrying about and reading up about how they've been shafted in the custody/court situation by rude and unethical attorneys, it will not serve you well in a court setting.

GET A GOOD ATTORNEY. Let them guide you. If they think it's time to go back to court, so be it. Let them hear about what all the ex and his new wife are doing. Let them see exactly what is being allowed, as far as your custody arrangements. And then let them help you make the decision about whether or not to take this back into court.

In the meantime, do encourage your daughter to use all the custody that you are allowed, to make sure you're exercising all the visits you're allowed. And when you've made the calls, and gotten the child on the phone, don't say anything related to trashing the other parents. Be encouraging and supportive and hopeful to these children, let them know you're in their lives and that you love them as much as you can in the short times you do still have for interaction with them.

Try not to spend hours obsessing about this, and try not to let the children hear one word from you and their mom's family about how awful awful the situation is, or how badly you have been treated, how much they're being torn away from you. In other words, no negatives. Children are not little robots that are easy to program by any sort of parental alienation, (which weakens the whole theory), and if you seem like good, positive and supportive people, they're going to feel that, and all the mean talk about you in the world from other sources won't make as much difference as how YOU--the mom and mom's family make those kids feel that you feel about them.

This will be good practice for when you do go to another judge and re-look at custody. Believe it or not, the lawyers are not your personal enemies and your court officials will be trying to figure out which of the parenting situations for these kids is going to be best for them. If spending a bit of time with someone who's bitter and resentful and upset and can't get over the whole thing is going to upset the kids (regardless of who's told them what, alienated them, whatever) and you guys come across this way, then they probably aren't going to give you more custody. It sounds as though you lost ground last trip to court, yes, for many reasons, including your daughter being poorly represented from the sound of it. Before you go back to court, work on this not happening again.
 
Last edited:

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
GEMGEM, you do understand that you are not a party to this at all, right? You are seriously overstepping. I don't know why you believe that your inconvenience of having to travel some distance to see your grandchild has any bearing on the legal matter between the parents of the child. The FATHER of the child doesn't have to let you speak to the child at all, nor does he have to answer or return your telephone calls. It really baffles me that you feel that you have any rights in this matter.

Frankly, it sounds to me as if dad's attorney did exactly what he was supposed to do, specifically, he represented his client to the best of his ability. Additionally, the lack of motivation on the part of your daughter is telling and tends to show why dad has custody of the children.
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
GEMGEM, you do understand that you are not a party to this at all, right? You are seriously overstepping. I don't know why you believe that your inconvenience of having to travel some distance to see your grandchild has any bearing on the legal matter between the parents of the child. The FATHER of the child doesn't have to let you speak to the child at all, nor does he have to answer or return your telephone calls. It really baffles me that you feel that you have any rights in this matter.

Frankly, it sounds to me as if dad's attorney did exactly what he was supposed to do, specifically, he represented his client to the best of his ability. Additionally, the lack of motivation on the part of your daughter is telling and tends to show why dad has custody of the children.
Additionally, there are many legally relevant facts omitted that perhaps could be helpful...

...But if Mom can't come on here, create her own account, and state her situation, then maybe the current orders are the best that can be expected.

One thing that is always a red flag: when one party says the other "abused" them, but they leave the kids with the "abuser".
 

GEMGEM

Member
Honestly? I would suggest you help your daughter with a lawyer to review the current situation.
Hi, I think your idea is good because I believe that is what we truly need to do. I was told at the courthouse that you can also write a letter to the judge.
 

GEMGEM

Member
I agree. I think that its probably time to stop with mediation and get things in front of a judge.

However GemGem you are wrong about lawyers encouraging or teaching parents to commit alienation. They would have no motivation to do that and it could cause serious harm to their clients.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
I was told at the courthouse that you can also write a letter to the judge.
No, you cannot. Even if you were somehow legally involved in this matter (you're not), you cannot simply write a letter to the judge.
 

GEMGEM

Member
JdiJ: The mediation has already gone through and I believe the judge has approved. I don't know if you can do another mediation?

I am not trying to sound like I know it all, but it is very true about parent alienation. If you look on the internet, you will find it. The lawyer my ex had is an expert on parental alienation. I added an addendum at the bottom about a case where the judge was getting paid for this and surprisingly my ex-son-in-law's lawyer was the judge's assistant at that time. They were receiving money from clients. The lawyer (who was the assistant) was my ex-son-in-law's lawyer (he went back to school to be a lawyer). It was a newspaper article I came across by mistake. It was called "Kids for Cash" in Minnesota. The lawyer would have learned quite a bit about this subject and his name was in the article as being part of this scheme.
 

GEMGEM

Member
.Quote: " I typed a 42-page booklet with dates, instances, and abuse from her ex. (I kept track in a notebook with dates for years and kept all of her ex's emails). I read that people who are under the ADA should ask for accommodations for mediation. Of course, my daughter didn't know this (or me), and I realize it is her fault that she did not ask. Her ex had a very sneaky lawyer, who made the mediation worse, and most of it related to her illness under the ADA. He made us her supervisors (we were never asked). We have to be with her when she sees the kids for 2 hours, in hearing and visible distance, when she is with the kids (we live a state away). My daughter is doing very well; she has not had a bipolar episode for 4 years. I told her to get letters from her doctor, counselor, nurse, and social worker, but she never did. I would think that if my daughter's disability was such a big part of mediation, she should have been told that she could have assistance. The Lawyer who wrote up the mediation was crude and now making us drive 1200 miles to see our grandchildren. We used to meet halfway with their dad. That was only 600 miles. Now for us, it is 300 there, 300 home, 300 back, and 300 home; it is very crazy."

If your daughter went into mediation alone with her ex and his attorney with a 42 page booklet of dates instances and examples of abuse from her ex which you'd (her mother) had kept for years (and all her emails) it is little wonder she came out with less visitation, more supervision required, etc. Did she have an attorney at this time?

I'm having a hard time exactly figuring out what all happened here, except that now you have to drive both ways to pick up the kids, your daughter's phone calls with the kids are being monitored and you feel you and your daughter are being forced out and 'parental alienated' out of your grandchildren's lives.

I think a good family court attorney would be a very good use of your money and time. Let this attorney do the talking. Throw out all your rantings about parental alienation and this no good Minnesota attorney who was found out to be doing all this evil stuff and your ex son in law's attorney who probably learned it all from him. Parental alienation got to be a trendy thing back twenty years or so, it's getting to the point now that it screams somebody who's been lawing on the internet and thinks they've got the terms down. Of course people trash the ex, it's what people do in divorces and custody situations, and it has been going on since time began. What the court is going to be looking for is what will be in the best interests of the child.(ren).

If you guys come across as a custody party where somebody in the group is possibly mentally ill, is so incompetent that her parents helicopter over her up to and including reading all her emails and preparing 42 page manuals documenting her abuse for her mediation sessions, carry her to and from all visitations, and spend a lot of time worrying about and reading up about how they've been shafted in the custody/court situation by rude and unethical attorneys, it will not serve you well in a court setting.

GET A GOOD ATTORNEY. Let them guide you. If they think it's time to go back to court, so be it. Let them hear about what all the ex and his new wife are doing. Let them see exactly what is being allowed, as far as your custody arrangements. And then let them help you make the decision about whether or not to take this back into court.

In the meantime, do encourage your daughter to use all the custody that you are allowed, to make sure you're exercising all the visits you're allowed. And when you've made the calls, and gotten the child on the phone, don't say anything related to trashing the other parents. Be encouraging and supportive and hopeful to these children, let them know you're in their lives and that you love them as much as you can in the short times you do still have for interaction with them.

Try not to spend hours obsessing about this, and try not to let the children hear one word from you and their mom's family about how awful awful the situation is, or how badly you have been treated, how much they're being torn away from you. In other words, no negatives. Children are not little robots that are easy to program by any sort of parental alienation, (which weakens the whole theory), and if you seem like good, positive and supportive people, they're going to feel that, and all the mean talk about you in the world from other sources won't make as much difference as how YOU--the mom and mom's family make those kids feel that you feel about them.

This will be good practice for when you do go to another judge and re-look at custody. Believe it or not, the lawyers are not your personal enemies and your court officials will be trying to figure out which of the parenting situations for these kids is going to be best for them. If spending a bit of time with someone who's bitter and resentful and upset and can't get over the whole thing is going to upset the kids (regardless of who's told them what, alienated them, whatever) and you guys come across this way, then they probably aren't going to give you more custody. It sounds as though you lost ground last trip to court, yes, for many reasons, including your daughter being poorly represented from the sound of it. Before you go back to court, work on this not happening again.
 

GEMGEM

Member
This whole incident is extremely complicated. My daughter was to have a Pro Bono lawyer and at the last minute, he said he could not be there. My daughter was not represented and I think she was overwhelmed by the other lawyer with the mediator. I thought she said she never showed anyone the book I wrote up. After this mediation, I think she felt like a fool. If I had known about this, I would have been there with her. Now, she has to go through 3, 2-hour days of being observed by a woman named Helen. I believe the first visit went well. My daughter will not send me the mediation papers, which I need in order to read about the orders for my husband and I. I know we were made her supervisors. I also know that she has to be with us and the kids within hearing and visual distance. She is only allowed 2 nights sleepover with the children, but we have to be there. I believe that everything in the mediation papers, makes it impossible for her to be with her children. Now, they are deciding if she can be alone with the children for 2 hours every other weekend in her apartment. She can have some holidays, but then again, we were appointed supervisors. This is not fair to us because I am disabled (from being bullied at work 3 years) and my husband has bad knees (is having surgery soon). It is difficult for us to make the drive (like I said 1200 miles). Her ex used to gladly meet us halfway with the grandchildren. He was cordial to us. I believe this happened before his marriage, where his behavior totally changed. He emailed me in a nice way (most of the time). He wanted us to take the grandchildren (almost begging). We had the youngest grandchild for 10 months because he could not handle all 3 grandchildren at once (at this time, he was living with his family and had lots of help). It was his mom's idea to take the little one. During this time, my daughter was seeing Psychiatrists to get her medicine right. It takes time to do this with Bipolar patients. The children were told a lot of things related to the divorce and mediation. When I speak with them, they bring up these things. I would never do that. I try to give them a quick answer and tell them they need to talk to their dad. The reason I am upset about not being able to see the grandchildren as much, is that we are very close to them and they came to our home many times with the half-way meeting of the ex. They love visiting with us. This is good for the child's welfare. One problem that I have is that my daughter says, "I want to put this all behind me". She is mentally doing very well. She spent 9 years watching her children all day, while her ex worked all day. After her 3rd child, is when the bipolar kicked in. I have heard that is common. She is a very smart girl. She has a college degree in journalism. She was accepted at Juliaird (spell) school of arts. She had an appointment in Chicago but cancelled because of her ex and they were going to get married. She played the lead in a college play. She took 15 years of dance and has a beautiful singing voice. I myself, am not bitter or resentful, I am more disappointed of the outcome. I feel that I need to speak out about what happened to someone who understands. When I call the courthouse, I just get voicemails; no people. I also have to touch different numbers on the phone, but still get voicemails. It is more frustrating. One thing I know is that the grandchildren love their mom and us. I talked to the grandchildren last night and they love talking. The little one talked so much, like he had so much to say, but has been kept from talking to us. The ex, and I believe his new wife are manipulative. They told my daughter that the new wife wanted to adopt the children. My daughter would never do that. I feel like I am living a soap opera. I truly do not like this, but I know it needs to be taken care of and at this time, I am the only one who can begin the process. Thanks for you opinion. Also, it is hard to find a Family Lawyer in Minnesota - I know nothing about who is good. I believe we need a very strong lawyer who totally understands this odd situation.
 

GEMGEM

Member
No, you cannot. Even if you were somehow legally involved in this matter (you're not), you cannot simply write a letter to the judge.

Hi Zigner, A person at Washington County Courthouse did tell me I could write a letter to the judge??? I was thinking about calling the ADA to see what they say. I believe my husband and I are somewhat legally involved, but were never asked if we wanted to be my daughter's supervisors (this was just put in the mediation papers). We were also included in the driving (much longer distance) that will be hard on us. We were also told that we could visit the grandchildren once a month. I did a chart about this and it would cost over $800 a month to do this (hotel plus more). I believe her ex was told by his lawyer to do this. His lawyer also wrote up that, "It is not his job to drive". The grand kids are constantly saying, "It is not daddy's job to drive". The ex is just trying to get out of any driving or extra duties to help out. I am afraid that the grand kids will be learning by example, which is not good.
 

not2cleverRed

Obvious Observer
This whole incident is extremely complicated. My daughter was to have a Pro Bono lawyer and at the last minute, he said he could not be there. My daughter was not represented and I think she was overwhelmed by the other lawyer with the mediator. I thought she said she never showed anyone the book I wrote up. After this mediation, I think she felt like a fool. If I had known about this, I would have been there with her. Now, she has to go through 3, 2-hour days of being observed by a woman named Helen. I believe the first visit went well. My daughter will not send me the mediation papers, which I need in order to read about the orders for my husband and I. I know we were made her supervisors. I also know that she has to be with us and the kids within hearing and visual distance. She is only allowed 2 nights sleepover with the children, but we have to be there. I believe that everything in the mediation papers, makes it impossible for her to be with her children. Now, they are deciding if she can be alone with the children for 2 hours every other weekend in her apartment. She can have some holidays, but then again, we were appointed supervisors. This is not fair to us because I am disabled (from being bullied at work 3 years) and my husband has bad knees (is having surgery soon). It is difficult for us to make the drive (like I said 1200 miles). Her ex used to gladly meet us halfway with the grandchildren. He was cordial to us. I believe this happened before his marriage, where his behavior totally changed. He emailed me in a nice way (most of the time). He wanted us to take the grandchildren (almost begging). We had the youngest grandchild for 10 months because he could not handle all 3 grandchildren at once (at this time, he was living with his family and had lots of help). It was his mom's idea to take the little one. During this time, my daughter was seeing Psychiatrists to get her medicine right. It takes time to do this with Bipolar patients. The children were told a lot of things related to the divorce and mediation. When I speak with them, they bring up these things. I would never do that. I try to give them a quick answer and tell them they need to talk to their dad. The reason I am upset about not being able to see the grandchildren as much, is that we are very close to them and they came to our home many times with the half-way meeting of the ex. They love visiting with us. This is good for the child's welfare. One problem that I have is that my daughter says, "I want to put this all behind me". She is mentally doing very well. She spent 9 years watching her children all day, while her ex worked all day. After her 3rd child, is when the bipolar kicked in. I have heard that is common. She is a very smart girl. She has a college degree in journalism. She was accepted at Juliaird (spell) school of arts. She had an appointment in Chicago but cancelled because of her ex and they were going to get married. She played the lead in a college play. She took 15 years of dance and has a beautiful singing voice. I myself, am not bitter or resentful, I am more disappointed of the outcome. I feel that I need to speak out about what happened to someone who understands. When I call the courthouse, I just get voicemails; no people. I also have to touch different numbers on the phone, but still get voicemails. It is more frustrating. One thing I know is that the grandchildren love their mom and us. I talked to the grandchildren last night and they love talking. The little one talked so much, like he had so much to say, but has been kept from talking to us. The ex, and I believe his new wife are manipulative. They told my daughter that the new wife wanted to adopt the children. My daughter would never do that. I feel like I am living a soap opera. I truly do not like this, but I know it needs to be taken care of and at this time, I am the only one who can begin the process. Thanks for you opinion. Also, it is hard to find a Family Lawyer in Minnesota - I know nothing about who is good. I believe we need a very strong lawyer who totally understands this odd situation.
TL;DR

The fact of the matter is that your daughter is the one with parental rights.

Have her make an account with her own username.
 
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