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Improper installation of water heater

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Tempehrary

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

I bought a home about 9 months ago and am in the process of remodeling it. During one of the inspections, the city inspector noted that the gas line supplying the tankless water heater was too narrow and needs replacement. The heater was installed by the previous owner without permit. I contacted the seller who claims no responsibility as a) the problem was not found by the home inspector at the time of sale, and b) he did not know the heater was improperly installed and therefore had no reason to disclose it.

Looking back at the sales contract, there is a section stating that the buyer is aware that there may have been work done on the home without permit. However in another section there is a line asking the seller if he is aware of any work done without permit, to which he had answered 'no'.

To be clear, the heater is functioning well. To bring it up to code will cost approximately $2000. I am attempting to resolve the issue with the contractor who installed the water heater. If I am unable to do so, who is actually liable- the seller, the home inspector, or the contractor- or all three? Or is this something I just chalk up to experience and eat the cost?

Thanks in advance.
 


OHRoadwarrior

Senior Member
What proof do you have he knew of the need for a permit? Hardware stores do not ask to see a permit before selling an appliance.

CA is giving the rest of the country a bad name. Where I live, I have installed the gas line, hot water heater, AC duct upgrades, rewired and added several outlets/switches. changed garage door openers, perform some of my own furnace and AC work. Built my shed and do my own landscaping. That is just off the top of my head.
 
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LdiJ

Senior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? California

I bought a home about 9 months ago and am in the process of remodeling it. During one of the inspections, the city inspector noted that the gas line supplying the tankless water heater was too narrow and needs replacement. The heater was installed by the previous owner without permit. I contacted the seller who claims no responsibility as a) the problem was not found by the home inspector at the time of sale, and b) he did not know the heater was improperly installed and therefore had no reason to disclose it.

Looking back at the sales contract, there is a section stating that the buyer is aware that there may have been work done on the home without permit. However in another section there is a line asking the seller if he is aware of any work done without permit, to which he had answered 'no'.

To be clear, the heater is functioning well. To bring it up to code will cost approximately $2000. I am attempting to resolve the issue with the contractor who installed the water heater. If I am unable to do so, who is actually liable- the seller, the home inspector, or the contractor- or all three? Or is this something I just chalk up to experience and eat the cost?

Thanks in advance.
If the heater is functioning well, why do you believe that it needs to be repaired? Is the city requiring you to repair it?
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
What proof do you have he knew of the need for a permit? Hardware stores do not ask to see a permit before selling an appliance.

CA is giving the rest of the country a bad name. Where I live, I have installed the gas line, hot water heater, AC duct upgrades, rewired and added several outlets/switches. changed garage door openers, perform some of my own furnace and AC work. Built my shed and do my own landscaping. That is just off the top of my head.
It's not CA (well, not in this case). MANY municipalities across the country will require a permit when upgrading to a tankless water heater.
 

FarmerJ

Senior Member
Did someone use 3/8 ths soft copper line to service that hot water heater ? Did the city inspector say what the correct size was according to code? (my neighbor Heidi has two furnaces , gas cooking and gas dryer and the line the propane company installed from the tank to the regulator on the side of her home is 3/8 ths soft copper. Who quoted you 2K to install new line ? Have you learned what the trigger was to determine when a permit was needed? ( in many places fixture swaps do not require permit) I would suggest re checking your cities ords to learn what the triggers are that require permits your self instead of just relying on what the inspector told you and once you know the answer then make a decision as to what to do.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
Many cities in California require a permit to change or replace a water heater. Also, a quick search on the internet shows the problem with a too small gas line to the device. While I would certainly check out local ordinances, I suspect the inspector is correct. We should focus on the OP's remedies over if there is a problem.

To that, the damages are pretty small. The contractor has no privity with the OP so will not be responsible to him. Home inspectors should have caught such a thing, but their liability is so limited the OP could probably not hope to get anything but the fee back. Sometimes, contractual limitations on time to bring up a problem may limit even that. The only real place the OP can seek compensation is from the home seller. But, even there, there are issues to make this a more difficult case.

I'd probably make a demand of the seller and, if he doesn't want to deal or, maybe, split the cost, I'd sue him in small claims and let the judge decide.
 

Tempehrary

Junior Member
Thanks for all of your replies.

This is in California and the city where I live does require a permit for water heater installation. I am aware that work can be done on a house without permit - I've done it myself - but the issue to me is that the work was done incorrectly and now it is my problem. I don't have proof that the seller purposefully concealed the work or knew he needed a permit, but - and this is an honest question - does his ignorance serve as a valid excuse?

The city will not give final approval to the remodeling work we are doing without the gas line being changed. I agree the damages are not large, so it will end up in small claims if unresolved, but $2k is $2k... The price was quoted to me by a trusted local plumbing company who has done work for me before. They corroborated the inspector's observation about the improper installation (I realize they have some incentive to do so, but still). The line is 3/4" and supposedly it should be 1" in diameter.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to help.
 

TigerD

Senior Member
I don't have proof that the seller purposefully concealed the work or knew he needed a permit, but - and this is an honest question - does his ignorance serve as a valid excuse?
Sure you do. You have the water heater. The model and serial number of the water heater will tell you when it was manufactured. If it was manufactured while the previous owner owned the home, then he had to be aware that the hot water heater was replaced. No permit = purposeful concealment. Additionally, certain stores carry certain brands. You can call around and find out when this particular model was carried locally.

DC
 

FarmerJ

Senior Member
I would imagine you really could take your chances and sue in small claims after you have paid for the correction but on a serious note I cannot imagine why you would have to have one inch line to supply one item which is why I asked you if you verified what is code your self. ( Ive seen homes in the burbs that were built in the 70s had 1/2 OD soft copper gas line from the meter that served heat , hot , dryer, cook) Its up to you but seriously if you can try to put a date to the unit to offer to the court a time line for install and your city housing inspectors report as well as your docs from the purchase you might see a judge agree with you.
 

tranquility

Senior Member
I know I wanted to replace my water heater with a tankless and had a similar issue. Being cheap, I stayed with a tank. (Liking hot water, I got a big one.)
 

FarmerJ

Senior Member
LOL this home we are in was previously owned by a licensed electrician , most of the wiring is just fine but I will never understand why he did the kitchen outlets so lopsided. The house had propane for the boiler & luckily customer owned tank so filling it is alot cheaper and the line that comes to the house is 1/2 OD to which cook & dryer and the boiler are all attached to. But this one has off peak elect hot water, I think its great , it runs about 6.00 a month to heat the water. BUT back to the OP , have you been able to read the code your self ?
 

FlyingRon

Senior Member
Need permits to touch a gas appliance here as well.

Several observations:

1. The real estate sales "home inspectors" are by and large idiots. They wouldn't know a gas line from a water pipe in most cases. They're mostly a late-in-the-game bargaining chip to grab some more concessions from a desperate seller.

2. Houses are sold "AS IS." If you find something wrong with it later, it's by and large on you.

3. The requirement for disclosure under the civil code is weak. First off, it doesn't ask about lack of permits for appliances, only structural work=. Second, in order to make a case as to "known defects" you have to show the seller knew about them. Since the water heater worked fine and you didn't even detect the problem short of having another expert come in, makes it hard to push that point.
 

Zigner

Senior Member, Non-Attorney
Need permits to touch a gas appliance here as well.

Several observations:

1. The real estate sales "home inspectors" are by and large idiots. They wouldn't know a gas line from a water pipe in most cases. They're mostly a late-in-the-game bargaining chip to grab some more concessions from a desperate seller.

2. Houses are sold "AS IS." If you find something wrong with it later, it's by and large on you.

3. The requirement for disclosure under the civil code is weak. First off, it doesn't ask about lack of permits for appliances, only structural work=. Second, in order to make a case as to "known defects" you have to show the seller knew about them. Since the water heater worked fine and you didn't even detect the problem short of having another expert come in, makes it hard to push that point.
Thread is 7 years old - probably resurrected by a spammer.
 

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