Improperly Held Escrow Funds (Sec Dep)

[robert.knepp]

What is the name of your state? PA

I have filed a civil suit against my previous lanlord for lack of returning my security deposit. He obviously came back with the intent to defend the claim.

I was wondering anyone here could tell me if I've got a good chance of winning.

Here's the scoop:

I moved into the trailer on a verbal lease. We paid first months rent and security deposit ($400 + $400) in cash. We got LL's signature for this. He gave us a phone number but no address.

We continued to live there for 1.5 years, paying monthly rent ($400) in cash. Each time we got his signature showing we paid for that month. He always came to pick up the rent.

We told him we were planning to move out in a few months. He said that we probably wouldn't get security dep back until he rented the place out again (which I though was illegal since the sec dep was an escrow that he was not to spend).

We gave 30 days verbal notive on May 30. We moved out on June 29 and moved into our new home. We were required by state law to give him our new address in writing. We supplied him, in writing, a request for security deposit return to our new address on June 30.

Three weeks later we still hadn't heard from him. We called, only to get get the answering machine every time. Finally one day one of his kids answered and we got through to him. He told us that we did over $1000 in damages and asked us what we wanted to do about it. We told him to send us a list of damages. He then told us that he wasn't going to send it, but he would tell us on the phone. He also refused to give us his address.

Now it's been over a month and a half since we moved out and still no word. According to my states (PA) statutes the landlord has 30 days to give a written list of damages or forefeit the right to collect on those damages. Since we gave him our new address in writing, we had the right to collect on our security deopsit. So we filed a lawsuit at the local District Justice (which incidentally isn't easy without an address... let's just say you can pay extra to have a constable serve the papers by hand).

We took pictures of the old trailer (every room several angles each) when we moved out. We never told him we took them. We also have all his signatures for monthly rent and the security deposit.

How does civil court work? Do they have to follow the laws verbatim? Or do they just use them as a guideline (i.e. since we gave him our new address and he did not give us the list of damages, according to the laws we should win)?

I'm just weary about the whole thing. I've never had to sue someone before, and although I've done the research on PA state laws that say we will win, I'm worried about any unseen loopholes that the LL may try to use.

Any suggestions? (note: I will not take this as legal advice, rather personal advice).

 

[annefan]

What is the name of your state? PA
I moved into the trailer on a verbal lease.

--You are considered a tenant at will

We paid first months rent and security deposit ($400 + $400) in cash. We got LL's signature for this. He gave us a phone number but no address.

We continued to live there for 1.5 years, paying monthly rent ($400) in cash. Each time we got his signature showing we paid for that month. He always came to pick up the rent.

--Wise thinking

We told him we were planning to move out in a few months. He said that we probably wouldn't get security dep back until he rented the place out again (which I though was illegal since the sec dep was an escrow that he was not to spend).

--He's spouting bunk, security deposit escrow statement is correct


We gave 30 days verbal notive on May 30. We moved out on June 29 and moved into our new home. We were required by state law to give him our new address in writing. We supplied him, in writing, a request for security deposit return to our new address on June 30.

--By Certified Mail, Return Receipt, I hope

Three weeks later we still hadn't heard from him. We called, only to get get the answering machine every time. Finally one day one of his kids answered and we got through to him. He told us that we did over $1000 in damages and asked us what we wanted to do about it. We told him to send us a list of damages. He then told us that he wasn't going to send it, but he would tell us on the phone. He also refused to give us his address.

--Landlord, in court, will have to prove damages and costs; Tenant, in court, will have to prove the opposite, it will strengthen your case that you vacated and took photographs of the entire dwelling, closets, oven, showers/tubs, exterior, etc.

Now it's been over a month and a half since we moved out and still no word. According to my states (PA) statutes the landlord has 30 days to give a written list of damages or forefeit the right to collect on those damages. Since we gave him our new address in writing, we had the right to collect on our security deopsit. So we filed a lawsuit at the local District Justice (which incidentally isn't easy without an address... let's just say you can pay extra to have a constable serve the papers by hand).

--When you filed in District Court, you would also include in your claim the Landlord's failure to respond within 30 days of vacating, citing the statute. The constable fee is worth it, if judgment is found against the defendant, the defendant will have to also pay the costs associated with the suit.

We took pictures of the old trailer (every room several angles each) when we moved out. We never told him we took them. We also have all his signatures for monthly rent and the security deposit.

--Presumpuous move, very wise

How does civil court work? Do they have to follow the laws verbatim? Or do they just use them as a guideline (i.e. since we gave him our new address and he did not give us the list of damages, according to the laws we should win)?

I'm just weary about the whole thing. I've never had to sue someone before, and although I've done the research on PA state laws that say we will win, I'm worried about any unseen loopholes that the LL may try to use.

Any suggestions? (note: I will not take this as legal advice, rather personal advice).

--The landlord doesn't seem to have a chance. Don't worry about it, you seemed to have covered the bases. Now you just have to wait patiently for the hearing. Bring all of your documentation with you. The least the landlord can do is be a royal pain in the arse and delay (postpone) the hearing, once, due to conflict of his schedule. Patience.

 

[robert.knepp]

Thanks for your quick response!

As for the "By Certified Mail, Return Receipt, I hope", the answer is unfortunately no. This is mainly because of the fact that he refused to give us his address (or we would have sent it via cert mail).

Anyway, we did the next best thing (I think). We wrote the letter (dated June 30) and tacked it conspicuosly to the property front door. We then took it one step further and took pictures of ourselves standing next to the document. I hope that covers it.

Thanks again.

 

[robert.knepp]

Update on the situation.

Well sure enough, my old landlord has turned around and counter-sued me for damages and lost rent in the amount of $3198!!!!! Grrrr..... I assumed he would do as much.

I'm sure he thinks he'll win because he probably has receipts showing that work was done. He doesn't know I have pictures of the trailer just before we moved, so I'm hoping to catch his lies with the photos.

My question, this time around, is:

Even if I lose the battle over the security deposit (i.e. he doesn't have to return twice the sec dep), can he rightfully collect on any/all damages (with or without receipts) seeing as he never gave us a written list of damages within the 30 days allotted?

Also, and I'm sure everyone gets nervous when the court date rolls around, I'm getting worried that perhaps I'm doing to much planning for the court case. I've spent hours and hours researching my rights and responsibilities as a tenant and everything is saying that I will win. I'm just afraid the judge will look at me and think I'm a 'know-it-all' and find some way to prove me wrong. In question form I would word my concern like this: Should I specifically make it a point to bring up the PA landlord/tenant statutes during the case and point out specific instances where the landlord failed to comply with the statutes (in essense, I would be telling the judge that I win)? Is that cocky or what? Heh...

 

[Cvillecpm]

Escrow is not always escrow

I think there is misinformation on the term "escrow". Putting a deposit of $400 in escrow is not easy - it would have your SS# on it and would probably be in a savings account.

On the bigger issue, be aware that he can counter sue you for any damages over the deposit and if he presents evidence to the court that he did provide itemization and you are just saying you did not get, it is a "jump ball".

Somewhere in the process, I hope you wrote LL a "demand" letter saying "hey, we did not get our deposit or an itemization and you have 5 days to give them to us or we'll sue you in Small Claims, etc."

I would feel better about your prospects with this cover demand letter in your possession.

 

[robert.knepp]

Re: Escrow is not always escrow

I think there is misinformation on the term "escrow". Putting a deposit of $400 in escrow is not easy - it would have your SS# on it and would probably be in a savings account.

On the bigger issue, be aware that he can counter sue you for any damages over the deposit and if he presents evidence to the court that he did provide itemization and you are just saying you did not get, it is a "jump ball".

Somewhere in the process, I hope you wrote LL a "demand" letter saying "hey, we did not get our deposit or an itemization and you have 5 days to give them to us or we'll sue you in Small Claims, etc."

I would feel better about your prospects with this cover demand letter in your possession.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

I understand the idea of escrow... and I understand that what I gave to the landlord was a security deposit... which I thought, by law, was supposed to go into escrow... what I do know, but cannot prove, is that he spent that money.

He has counter-sued me exactly as you stated, save for one thing. He never gave us a written itemized list of damages. The only evidence he could provide that proves he gave us a list would be a Certified Letter reciept and/or my signature saying he gave us the list. Since he never gave us a list, he won't have that chance (unless of course I'm under-estimating him and he forges some sort of document). If I am correct, I believe it is on his part to prove he gave us the list. I, on the other hand, did give him my new address in writing, although not via cert mail (he refused to give his address). To do that I wrote the letter (made copies) posted it to the front door of the premises and took pictures of myself and wife standing next to it. The letter was worded as such:

**************
Bill XXXXXXX,

Here is our new address:
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX, PA XXXXXX

Please send us a list of damages to be applied to our security deposit ($400), by mail, for our previous residence located at:
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX, PA XXXXXX

If you have any questions, please call us at:
(XXX) XXX-XXXX


Thank You,
Bob XXXX
(signature)
**************

Trust me, I would have sent him a 'demand' letter had he not refused to give us his address. When filing the original claim, I had to have a constable server the letter because of the lack of address. I'm not sure if it would be considered a 'demand', but the letter with my new address did ask for him to send us a list of damages.

Then again, I'm not sure why having a demand letter would have helped. Could you elaborate on this a little more?

Thanks for you input.

 

[Cvillecpm]

Demand letter is just that and you could have found out LL's address from tax assessor's office. Whoever/whatever court official who served your warrent or court paperwork can tell you where LL lives and serving it personally is almost always the case with a copy going regular mail.

If you feel comfortable with what you have done, just don't get into badmouthing LL in court - stick to the facts of what YOU did.

 

[robert.knepp]

Demand letter is just that and you could have found out LL's address from tax assessor's office. Whoever/whatever court official who served your warrent or court paperwork can tell you where LL lives and serving it personally is almost always the case with a copy going regular mail.

If you feel comfortable with what you have done, just don't get into badmouthing LL in court - stick to the facts of what YOU did.

OK, thanks for your advice. I plan on doing exactly as you suggested (and planned on it since the beginning).... sticking to the facts.

Badmouthing the LL in court? I'm not stupid!

I'm new to all this court mumbo jumbo and was unaware of how to get the LL's address. I called a local lawyer who said he could not help. The district justice's office said they probably could not help, but said the constable would be able to find him. So I paid out $40 more dollars do have it done.

Btw, you wouldn't happen to be a landlord would you?

 

[HomeGuru]

Cvillecpm is a licensed real estate property manager who left this website back in January due to providing incorrect advice.

 

[robert.knepp]

Cvillecpm is a licensed real estate property manager who left this website back in January due to providing incorrect advice.

Hmmm.... do you ever get that feeling in your stomach that something just is not right? Heh... I had that feeling. No offense, Cvillecpm, just stating what I felt.

Thanks for the heads up, HG.

In other news, and bad news it is, I have lost a very important part of my evidence! When I first filed suit against my landlord, I had his signature for first months rent and security deposit along with a majority of signatures for each month. Well, I've lost the security deposit signature. I still have 95% of each months signatures for rent though.

I'm taking that as an automatic loss for my part of the case (to get back double security deposit). It is a good thing I wasn't counting on that money. I still feel I have a good chance of winning against his counter claim though, since he never sent the list of damages to me.

Grrrrr.... Hmmm... do you ever get that feeling in your stomach that you just want to slap yourself upside the head?

 

[robert.knepp]

Just finishing up some research before the court date (set for Thursday in two days) and have a question.

PA statutes state that the landlord has 30 days to give a list of damages (plus or minus the security deopsit) back to the tenant. That is only if the tenant gives th landlord the new address to which to send the list to.

I have done the above, giving the landlord my new address. He failed to give the list of damages.

My questions is this:
Although I gave 30 days notice to move out of the residence, I never gave the notice in 'writing'. It was purely verbal. He then proceeded to tell me that we would have to wait for the security deposit until a new tenant was found. He placed the 'for rent' ad in the local paper a week later (which I cannot find a copy of now). I did give him my new address in writing, however. How can/will this effect the case, if at all?

 

[HomeGuru]

Just finishing up some research before the court date (set for Thursday in two days) and have a question.

PA statutes state that the landlord has 30 days to give a list of damages (plus or minus the security deopsit) back to the tenant. That is only if the tenant gives th landlord the new address to which to send the list to.

I have done the above, giving the landlord my new address. He failed to give the list of damages.

My questions is this:
Although I gave 30 days notice to move out of the residence, I never gave the notice in 'writing'. It was purely verbal. He then proceeded to tell me that we would have to wait for the security deposit until a new tenant was found. He placed the 'for rent' ad in the local paper a week later (which I cannot find a copy of now). I did give him my new address in writing, however. How can/will this effect the case, if at all?

**A: it would be up to the judge.

 

[robert.knepp]

Thanks for the quick response, once again. I'll write back in a few days to let you all know how everything goes.

 

[HomeGuru]

Ok, and good luck to you Robert.

 

[robert.knepp]

Well, I had my hearing today... yay!

We are extremely lucky in that the landlord did not deny the fact that we gave him the security deposit. We did not need to show a receipt (the one we lost). That's one point for us!

The landlord said they did not send us a list of damages because they had already recieved the court subpoena (lie #1). We told the DJ that he tried to give us the list over the phone (and did give us several but not all) but we told him we needed it in writing.

The landlord's list of damages (brought to court on a piece of tablet paper written in ink with bad hand writing) had only estimates. They had only one receipt of the carpet costs from before we moved in to prove the worth of the carpet that had minor stains (according to him they were major stains). They also had an estimate from a lumber yard for maple wood to replace the existing wood floor(which was not maple and was unfinished). They never actually fixed the floor (it didn't need replaced). That's points two and three for us... and perhaps one for them.

We were very truthful and told the DJ that some (two out of the ten damages he listed) of the damages caused were in fact valid. I then gave my defense that they never gave us a written list.

The DJ said she had 5 days to make a decision. She also said that she needs to dig into the books to see if telling us by phone would be considered a 'written' list. She said I was looking at the law in 'black-and-white' and that it's not that easy. I thought it was, but hey, she's the DJ.

Does anyone have any insight on what is considered a 'written' list of damages? It's not going to change anything now, but it would just be nice to know others' experiences with this type of issue.

I can't wait to get the verdict... and I'm just glad the hard part is over. Then if I have to, I will appeal. Would it be wise to get an attorney if I have to appeal?