Is it Theft or not???

[amax41]

What is the name of your state? Wisconsin

Scenario -

A corporation has a bank account, 3 signers - 2 are officers and only owners of the corporation one isn't (yea I know). The NON officer withdraws all funds in a bank check made out to ONLY the corporation's name and closes the account. The next day that person trasacts the check acting as the corporation and takes the money.

Theft? Grey area? The amount is well over $10,000 should the Feds handle this? All input is greatly appreciated!

 

[seniorjudge]

What is the name of your state? Wisconsin

Scenario -

A corporation has a bank account, 3 signers - 2 are officers and only owners of the corporation one isn't (yea I know). The NON officer withdraws all funds in a bank check made out to ONLY the corporation's name and closes the account. The next day that person trasacts the check acting as the corporation and takes the money.

Theft? Grey area? The amount is well over $10,000 should the Feds handle this? All input is greatly appreciated!

If the person signing the check had the authority to do what you say, then there was no crime. Not even close.

 

[amax41]

so since he was able to pull the money and not part of the corporation he can transact the check even though it is only made out to the corporation??? That is simply amazing...wouldn't the transaction of closing the account sever the ties and establish a grounds by where his transacting that check made out to a corporation he has nothing to do with be illegal?

 

[seniorjudge]

so since he was able to pull the money and not part of the corporation he can transact the check even though it is only made out to the corporation??? That is simply amazing...wouldn't the transaction of closing the account sever the ties and establish a grounds by where his transacting that check made out to a corporation he has nothing to do with be illegal?

That is simply amazing...

Why? That's the way y'all set it up!

 

[amax41]

so in short your take on this is simple - If anyone is allowed to sign on a corporate account - then they are free to grab the money and run without any threat

 

[Zigner]

If the person signing the check had the authority to do what you say, then there was no crime. Not even close.

Oh, except for maybe embezzlement

 

[CheeseBlotto]

Exactly. Nearly all companies of any size have non-owners authorized to sign checks. That doesn't give them the keys to the kingdom so to speak. It would appear in this case Seniorjudge is having a senior moment.

Call the cops.

 

[amax41]

funny you should say that Cheese....I did .....they have never done a thing. Which raises the question...FBI? anyone?

 

[CheeseBlotto]

Try your county prosecutor's office.

 

[outonbail]

The senior judge is correct, you will not have much luck seeking criminal charges. (as you have already experienced)
If you can prove what he did was not in accordance to his position and was done maliciously, to convert funds which he was not entitled to, into his own property, take him to civil court.
If he's a turnip, which I'm guessing is the case, then you don't stand much of a chance at recovering the money even if you do get a judgment against him.

Chalk this up to one of life's hard learned lessons. The one about knowing who you should entrust with your business matters and money.

Or, send Guido out to break some legs,,,,,,

 

[amax41]

he had no position.... he wanted to but refused to pony up the investment...and he didn't go turnip either I can tell you exactly where he is any time of the day. This is pretty rediculous, at this rate we might as well just blow this country up. There must be justice somewhere!!

 

[outonbail]

he had no position.... he wanted to but refused to pony up the investment...and he didn't go turnip either I can tell you exactly where he is any time of the day.

What I meant by referring to him as a turnip, is the old cliché, "You can't get blood out of a turnip". as there is a high probability, that you will pay out more money in attorney fees to take this loser to court, than you will stand to collect, if you were to prevail.

This is pretty ridiculous, at this rate we might as well just blow this country up. There must be justice somewhere!!

Believe me, I know exactly how you feel. I had this experience myself, only the business partner that I gave a tremendous opportunity to, thanked me by helping himself to the tune of sixty thousand dollars of money which should have gone to me. After years of paying attorney fees on top of that loss, I learned he couldn't be charged criminally for his actions because you can't steal from yourself. Prevailing hasn't given me a single dollar either. Now my situation was a little different because we were a partnership, not a corporation. But either way, when your going into business with someone and/or trusting people with access to your bank accounts, you have to be real sure you know who your dealing with and even then, don't trust anyone with more than you can afford to lose.

You see, by making this person a signer on the bank account, he had access to the money and he took advantage of that access. The bank can't be held responsible, because it was the corporations two officers/owners who placed him in the position and gave him the opportunity to grab and go. When you contact the police, his story will be that he had every right to do what he did and he'll probably claim he was told to do it by one of the officers. The police are not going to get involved and try to straighten out the mess that was created by the poor business decisions made by the officers of the corporation.
Hence, your only choice is bringing a civil action against him.
Unfortunately, it will be a civil matter where the only guarantee is that it will become another sure way of losing additional money.
Unfortunately, most of us learn this lesson a little too late.

Blowing up the country will not do much good. But I can tell you this, I often consider the fact that if I had allowed my emotions to direct my actions back then, I would be getting paroled out of prison about now. But, only for my fear of God, I followed my brain rather than my emotions.

Sometimes, I think I made the wrong choice.

 

[garrula lingua]

Some detectives specialize in 'paper cases" - usu the fraud division.

In Ca, that case would be filed as embezzlement, as long as it can be proven that there was no permission to issue the check, and the check was not in payment for a legit corp expense/payout.

Hopefully, you have established procedures for issueing checks; I assume yoyo had authority to sign a check ?
Was yoyo paying himself wages/investment due ? If so, not criminal, but civil.

You have to explain to the 'right' detective that this was embezzlement and grand theft.

If this IS a clear case of theft, go down to the cop station, ask to speak to the detectives who specialize in fraud/embezzlement**paper' cases. ( Most patrol deputies would run a mile from these cases; they're not trained to handle check fraud/theft when it's internal.)

Don't give up -- if this is a clear case of embezzlement, they will file the case. You just have to be persistent.

Is it just yourself, or is the other corporate officer also asking for criminal charges ?

If you live in a small community, ask the cops if it would help, them (in reporting the facts/prosecuting the case) if you hired an auditor. The auditor can lay out the facts which show the procedures used and the embezzlement, to make the case easy to digest for the Prosecutor and the jury.

Don't give up. Try that, and then go one notch higher with a supervisor.
If that doesn't work, then see if the rep from the Chamber of Commerce will go with you to the cops.

The problem is, as SeniorJudge was noting, most of these cases are fights between partners, which is civil. You have to have a CLEAR THEFT case for the Pros to file.

 

[amax41]

yes I figured it would get that complicated. Basically I'm not going to do anything on this for these reasons -

1) he wasn't a partner
2) the corporation was owned by myself and my wife
3) while he was given no authority to close the account, he did.
4) what was a long time friend is now an outcast in our lives
5) the government in this town is pretty rediculous, so I highly doubt no matter who I go to I'm sunk. Cause either they won't get it, they won't get off their asses, or they know him.
6) it's the weight of legal fees vs. getting the money back - not worth it except for principal.

to give everyone a view of the uphill battle - I found an intruder on my router stealing internet usage and basically hacking my systems. I call the police since that is a crime - they had no idea it was...nor know how to catch him - in short I had to do the education and the leg work to get him.

So I'll sit here and take it - as he has a drive to run us bankrupt by sending everyone and their brother at us by giving them never created letterhead with my signature traced and the legal folks are believing the documentation not my cries that these are forgeries. (hard signature that he obtained a copy of and has learned how to trace)

 

[amax41]

since the question will be looming "what did they do?" simple answer - this wannaba partner in the business refused to put any investment into it. He actually expected me to fudge it to look like it.....that's when I made the move to remove him from the account and found he had beaten me to the $$$$.

So as childish as it seems - just because I wouldn't let him and his wife into the business because I wasn't going to fudge anything - he's now on a rant to destroy us. Go figure.