Is this elder financial abuse?

[mrbluejay]

California.

Recently my mom of 89 years old fell and had a brain bleed. She required brain surgery and was in the ICU.
My dad is 93 and has been diagnosed with dementia.

My oldest brother flew in from Hawaii to visit my mom in the hospital.
He has access to mom and dad's online retirement and bank accounts.
He also has Power of Attorney should my mom and dad pass away.

I found out recently he charged my dad's bank account over $1000.00 for his airfare to fly out to California.
He also has recorded 40 hours on an Excel spreadsheet as time he spent "helping mom and dad". (I am not sure if they have been charged money to their bank account for this yet).
There are many various other charges I have noticed on his Excel spreadsheet such as taxi fares, meals, etc.

I have two other brothers and we where shocked when we found out about this a couple days ago.

Would this be considered Elder Financial Abuse? I am considering calling Adult Protective Services.

 

[quincy]

California.

Recently my mom of 89 years old fell and had a brain bleed. She required brain surgery and was in the ICU.
My dad is 93 and has been diagnosed with dementia.

My oldest brother flew in from Hawaii to visit my mom in the hospital.
He has access to mom and dad's online retirement and bank accounts.
He also has Power of Attorney should my mom and dad pass away.

I found out recently he charged my dad's bank account over $1000.00 for his airfare to fly out to California.
He also has recorded 40 hours on an Excel spreadsheet as time he spent "helping mom and dad". (I am not sure if they have been charged money to their bank account for this yet).
There are many various other charges I have noticed on his Excel spreadsheet such as taxi fares, meals, etc.

I have two other brothers and we where shocked when we found out about this a couple days ago.

Would this be considered Elder Financial Abuse? I am considering calling Adult Protective Services.

Have you spoken to your brother about his expenses?

He should be entitled to some reimbursement if he has to be away from his home in Hawaii to take care of your parents.

Are you or either of your other brothers available (or willing) to assist with your parents’ needs at this time?

Offhand, and based strictly on what you have provided in information so far, I do not see any elder abuse.

 

[LdiJ]

California.

Recently my mom of 89 years old fell and had a brain bleed. She required brain surgery and was in the ICU.
My dad is 93 and has been diagnosed with dementia.

My oldest brother flew in from Hawaii to visit my mom in the hospital.
He has access to mom and dad's online retirement and bank accounts.
He also has Power of Attorney should my mom and dad pass away.

I found out recently he charged my dad's bank account over $1000.00 for his airfare to fly out to California.
He also has recorded 40 hours on an Excel spreadsheet as time he spent "helping mom and dad". (I am not sure if they have been charged money to their bank account for this yet).
There are many various other charges I have noticed on his Excel spreadsheet such as taxi fares, meals, etc.

I have two other brothers and we where shocked when we found out about this a couple days ago.

Would this be considered Elder Financial Abuse? I am considering calling Adult Protective Services.

A few things that you should understand:

A POA is only good while someone is alive, but unable to handle their affairs/pay their bills etc. Once they pass away the POA ends and then the estate and the executor or the administrator of the estate takes over.

Your mom was in the hospital and incapacitated and your father has dementia. Clearly neither of them were in a position to handle their affairs at that time and may not be now. Therefore, it is likely that it was appropriate for your brother to act on the POA.

It can be appropriate for someone acting as a POA to reimburse themselves for the expenses they incur in handling the affairs of the incapacitated person(s). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that it would be considered to be elder financial abuse for your brother to have reimbursed himself.

Where do the rest of you live? It seems a bit odd for someone as far away as Hawaii to be named as POA for people living in CA if there is anyone else living closer. However, it likely would be difficult or impossible to change that now, unless one of you petitioned for guardianship/financial guardianship over your parents.

All in all I don't think that your brother has done anything legally wrong and maybe not morally wrong either.

 

[mrbluejay]

A few things that you should understand:

A POA is only good while someone is alive, but unable to handle their affairs/pay their bills etc. Once they pass away the POA ends and then the estate and the executor or the administrator of the estate takes over.

Your mom was in the hospital and incapacitated and your father has dementia. Clearly neither of them were in a position to handle their affairs at that time and may not be now. Therefore, it is likely that it was appropriate for your brother to act on the POA.

It can be appropriate for someone acting as a POA to reimburse themselves for the expenses they incur in handling the affairs of the incapacitated person(s). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that it would be considered to be elder financial abuse for your brother to have reimbursed himself.

Where do the rest of you live? It seems a bit odd for someone as far away as Hawaii to be named as POA for people living in CA if there is anyone else living closer. However, it likely would be difficult or impossible to change that now, unless one of you petitioned for guardianship/financial guardianship over your parents.

All in all I don't think that your brother has done anything legally wrong and maybe not morally wrong either.

My two other brothers and I live in California.
I spent a lot of time with my visiting my parents and was there at the hospital when my mom was in the ICU.
We wanted our parents to stay in California where we could easily visit them.
My older brother from Hawaii convinced them to move to a care facility in Hawaii rather than the less expensive one near their home.
The move was very stressful for them.
My Hawaii brother arranged for my parents to pay around the $10,000/month cost which began on August 1st, and he had them leave for Hawaii August 13th.
It was my understanding that they would go directly there once they arrived.
They instead spent the rest of August at my brothers house in Hawaii, with my brother's explanation that their furniture wouldn't arrive for another 6-8 weeks.
The downstairs apartment in my brother's house where they stayed at had all the furniture such as a bed, kitchen table, couch, TV, etc.
that could have easily been temporarily sent to their residence in the care facility until their shipment arrived.
One of my California brothers saw this problem and made some phone calls and arranged rental furniture to be delivered to the facility residence September 1st and that is when my parents finally moved out of my Hawaii brother's house.
His apartment where they stayed has cement floors, granite countertops and stairs which they needed to use when they ate meals upstairs with them.
His house in the town of Waimea is also over an hour away from the closest 24 hour emergency hospital in Lihue.
They were charged for meals and services by the hour, such as cleaning, laundry, shopping, etc., at my brother's. Most of these were already covered and paid for at that time in their contract with the care facility.

 

[quincy]

My two other brothers and I live in California.
I spent a lot of time with my visiting my parents and was there at the hospital when my mom was in the ICU.
We wanted our parents to stay in California where we could easily visit them.
My older brother from Hawaii convinced them to move to a care facility in Hawaii rather than the less expensive one near their home.
The move was very stressful for them.
My Hawaii brother arranged for my parents to pay around the $10,000/month cost which began on August 1st, and he had them leave for Hawaii August 13th.
It was my understanding that they would go directly there once they arrived.
They instead spent the rest of August at my brothers house in Hawaii, with my brother's explanation that their furniture wouldn't arrive for another 6-8 weeks.
The downstairs apartment in my brother's house where they stayed at had all the furniture such as a bed, kitchen table, couch, TV, etc.
that could have easily been temporarily sent to their residence in the care facility until their shipment arrived.
One of my California brothers saw this problem and made some phone calls and arranged rental furniture to be delivered to the facility residence September 1st and that is when my parents finally moved out of my Hawaii brother's house.
His apartment where they stayed has cement floors, granite countertops and stairs which they needed to use when they ate meals upstairs with them.
His house in the town of Waimea is also over an hour away from the closest 24 hour emergency hospital in Lihue.
They were charged for meals and services by the hour, such as cleaning, laundry, shopping, etc., at my brother's. Most of these were already covered and paid for at that time in their contract with the care facility.

I don’t understand. Are your parents in California now or Hawaii?

 

[zddoodah]

He also has Power of Attorney should my mom and dad pass away.

Please clarify what this means. A power of attorney ("POA") is a document by which one person (referred to as the principal) gives another person (the agent or attorney-in-fact) authority to deal with third-persons on behalf of the principal. The scope of authority conferred by a POA may be very broad or very limited. The authority conferred by a POA terminates upon the death of the principal. As a result, your statement that your brother has POA "should [your] mom and dad pass away" doesn't really make sense. Also, I assume there are two POAs: one for each parent. Correct? Last, what is the scope of each POA?

I found out recently he charged my dad's bank account over $1000.00 for his airfare to fly out to California.

How did you find this out?

Would this be considered Elder Financial Abuse?

I would hope it obvious that logging time on a spreadsheet isn't abuse in any way, so the only thing that could possibly constitute abuse is the reimbursement of $1,000 for flights.

"Financial abuse," as it relates to an "elder or dependent adult" is defined in section 15610.30 of the California Welfare and Institutions Code:

"(a) 'Financial abuse' of an elder or dependent adult occurs when a person or entity does any of the following:

(1) Takes, secretes, appropriates, obtains, or retains real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud, or both.

(2) Assists in taking, secreting, appropriating, obtaining, or retaining real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud, or both.

(3) Takes, secretes, appropriates, obtains, or retains, or assists in taking, secreting, appropriating, obtaining, or retaining, real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult by undue influence, as defined in Section 15610.70."

There's a bit more to it than that, but it would have to be proven - whether in a criminal prosecution or a civil lawsuit - that the taking of the money was "for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud." Can that be done here? I have no idea.

I find it curious that your post makes no mention of having discussed this with your brother.

It can be appropriate for someone acting as a POA to reimburse themselves for the expenses they incur in handling the affairs of the incapacitated person(s). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that it would be considered to be elder financial abuse for your brother to have reimbursed himself.

Concur.

I'm not sure what the point of your follow-up post is. However, since everyone involved in the $1,000 transaction apparently now live in Hawaii, it is extremely unlikely that any authority in California is going to take action over what may very well be an appropriate transaction Nevertheless, you are, of course, free to speak to whatever law enforcement entity you believe is appropriate.

 

[not2cleverRed]

Where do the rest of you live? It seems a bit odd for someone as far away as Hawaii to be named as POA for people living in CA if there is anyone else living closer. However, it likely would be difficult or impossible to change that now, unless one of you petitioned for guardianship/financial guardianship over your parents.

I suspect that this is due to one of the following:
a) Lack of updating: the POA was established when the brother lived on the mainland and was not updated after he moved.
b) Lack of foresight: the parents didn't take into account what would happen if they actually needed help.

An example of lack of foresight: a family member sought to have a trust/guardianship plan for their disabled adult child. They chose 2 of their older children as trustees - logical choices based on their skills, but illogical based on geography. Their youngest child is local, not 1,500 miles away, but overlooked because, like, they're the youngest.

 

[mrbluejay]

I don’t understand. Are your parents in California now or Hawaii?

They are in Hawaii.

 

[mrbluejay]

A few things that you should understand:

A POA is only good while someone is alive, but unable to handle their affairs/pay their bills etc. Once they pass away the POA ends and then the estate and the executor or the administrator of the estate takes over.

Your mom was in the hospital and incapacitated and your father has dementia. Clearly neither of them were in a position to handle their affairs at that time and may not be now. Therefore, it is likely that it was appropriate for your brother to act on the POA.

It can be appropriate for someone acting as a POA to reimburse themselves for the expenses they incur in handling the affairs of the incapacitated person(s). Therefore, it is highly unlikely that it would be considered to be elder financial abuse for your brother to have reimbursed himself.

Where do the rest of you live? It seems a bit odd for someone as far away as Hawaii to be named as POA for people living in CA if there is anyone else living closer. However, it likely would be difficult or impossible to change that now, unless one of you petitioned for guardianship/financial guardianship over your parents.

All in all I don't think that your brother has done anything legally wrong and maybe not morally wrong either.

Thank you for your reply.
Sorry about my misunderstanding of POA's and Trusts, etc. This is all new to me.
I need to clarify with my parents who actually has POA at this time.
It does seem odd that my brother in Hawaii would have POA.
In the Excel spread sheet there is a column of brother's expenses, then a total for the month of August of $2,162.79. (the total for September is $4,080.79).
The next column is titled Loans to folks.
Included there appears to be what looks like some abbreviated accounting table with columns of date, my brother's bank account., description (credit card), memo (travel), category(his to my parents disbursement) and amount, then a total "outflow" of -$2,160.42.

He has such things on the spread sheet as the "order and pickup pizza 0.5 hours, pizza cost $19, shopping groceries for their lunch and dinners 1.5 hours, help find blood pressure 0.1 hours, provide dinner 0.25 hours. This goes on daily in the spreadsheet.
(Meals are included in the fees they already paid to the care facility at this time).

I asked him to explain his spreadsheet he replied "It's not my fault you can't understand a spreadsheet".
My two brothers and I from California have been asking extensively him about this spread sheet - whether he is charging my parents bank account, retirement account, trust or whether he plans to.

He hasn't answered the questions and gets angry with us when we press him on it.
If he doesn't actually have the POA is this legal?

 

[mrbluejay]

I suspect that this is due to one of the following:
a) Lack of updating: the POA was established when the brother lived on the mainland and was not updated after he moved.
b) Lack of foresight: the parents didn't take into account what would happen if they actually needed help.

An example of lack of foresight: a family member sought to have a trust/guardianship plan for their disabled adult child. They chose 2 of their older children as trustees - logical choices based on their skills, but illogical based on geography. Their youngest child is local, not 1,500 miles away, but overlooked because, like, they're the youngest.

Thanks for your reply.
I am trying to find out who actually has POA. I assumed it was the brother in Hawaii.
I will ask my parents next time I speak with them.

 

[mrbluejay]

Please clarify what this means. A power of attorney ("POA") is a document by which one person (referred to as the principal) gives another person (the agent or attorney-in-fact) authority to deal with third-persons on behalf of the principal. The scope of authority conferred by a POA may be very broad or very limited. The authority conferred by a POA terminates upon the death of the principal. As a result, your statement that your brother has POA "should [your] mom and dad pass away" doesn't really make sense. Also, I assume there are two POAs: one for each parent. Correct? Last, what is the scope of each POA?




How did you find this out?




I would hope it obvious that logging time on a spreadsheet isn't abuse in any way, so the only thing that could possibly constitute abuse is the reimbursement of $1,000 for flights.

"Financial abuse," as it relates to an "elder or dependent adult" is defined in section 15610.30 of the California Welfare and Institutions Code:

"(a) 'Financial abuse' of an elder or dependent adult occurs when a person or entity does any of the following:

(1) Takes, secretes, appropriates, obtains, or retains real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud, or both.

(2) Assists in taking, secreting, appropriating, obtaining, or retaining real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud, or both.

(3) Takes, secretes, appropriates, obtains, or retains, or assists in taking, secreting, appropriating, obtaining, or retaining, real or personal property of an elder or dependent adult by undue influence, as defined in Section 15610.70."

There's a bit more to it than that, but it would have to be proven - whether in a criminal prosecution or a civil lawsuit - that the taking of the money was "for a wrongful use or with intent to defraud." Can that be done here? I have no idea.

I find it curious that your post makes no mention of having discussed this with your brother.




Concur.

I'm not sure what the point of your follow-up post is. However, since everyone involved in the $1,000 transaction apparently now live in Hawaii, it is extremely unlikely that any authority in California is going to take action over what may very well be an appropriate transaction Nevertheless, you are, of course, free to speak to whatever law enforcement entity you believe is appropriate.

Thanks for your reply.
You are right, it could just be something on a spreadsheet and not an actual withdrawal of money.
We have been asking my brother extensively what is the purpose and meaning of the spreadsheet and have received a clear answer.
He has online access to our parents bank accounts but we do not.
I have asked him if he could send monthly statements to us or have an outside party reconcile them but he won't.
I need to find out who actually has the POA. He hasn't given us an answer.
I will ask my parents the next time I speak with them.