Legally married

[lswhitney]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)?

 

[Shadowbunny]

You can add details to your post by editing your original post or just replying to this thread. The preview function has been known to eat posts. And don't forget to tell us your state.

 

[lswhitney]

New York
My daughter was married on 10/17/15 they have custody established and are going to be divorcing, have been apart almost a year. The pastor that married them is NOT licenced, are they legally married?

 

[not2cleverRed]

New York
My daughter was married on 10/17/15 they have custody established and are going to be divorcing, have been apart almost a year. The pastor that married them is NOT licenced, are they legally married?

Did they get a marriage license?

https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/4210/

 

[Taxing Matters]

New York
My daughter was married on 10/17/15 they have custody established and are going to be divorcing, have been apart almost a year. The pastor that married them is NOT licenced, are they legally married?

I don’t know what you mean by not “licensed.” The government does not license religious officials (indeed requiring licensing to be a religious official would violate the Constitution’s First Amendment guarantee of freedom of religion). NY law does not require any kind of state certification for an official to be eligible to solemnize a marriage. NY Domestic Relations Law § 11 specifies who may solemnize a marriage. Subsection (1) is the provision allowing religious officials to solemnize a marriage. It states:

A clergyman or minister of any religion, or by the senior leader, or any of the other leaders, of The Society for Ethical Culture in the city of New York, having its principal office in the borough of Manhattan, or by the leader of The Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture, having its principal office in the borough of Brooklyn of the city of New York, or of the Westchester Ethical Society, having its principal office in Westchester county, or of the Ethical Culture Society of Long Island, having its principal office in Nassau county, or of the Riverdale-Yonkers Ethical Society having its principal office in Bronx county, or by the leader of any other Ethical Culture Society affiliated with the American Ethical Union; provided that no clergyman or minister as defined in section two of the religious corporations law, or Society for Ethical Culture leader shall be required to solemnize any marriage when acting in his or her capacity under this subdivision.​

N.Y. Dom. Rel. Law § 11(1) (McKinney). As you can see, so long as he was a “clergyman or minister” of any religion he was eligible to solemnize the marriage. Thus, if he was indeed a pastor of a church, that is all that was required for him to fill that role. Assuming the other requirements for marriage were met, the marriage is valid and they need a divorce to end it.

Edited to add: While the state law does not require a license to solemnize marriages, it does require persons who solemnize marriages in New York City to register with the city clerk. NY Dom. Rel. Law § 11-b. (Why state law requires this only in NYC is beyond me.) But the NY courts have held that the failure of the solemnizing official to register will not make the marriage invalid:

The parties lived together as husband and wife for almost 20 years; now that plaintiff seeks a divorce, defendant alleges that the marriage is a nullity because the [religious official] was not registered with the City Clerk as required by section 11—b of the Domestic Relations Law. The absence of such registration does not suffice to void a marriage (see Matter of Liberman, 6 Misc.2d 396, 162 N.Y.S.2d 62, revd. on other grounds 4 A.D.2d 512, 167 N.Y.S.2d 158, affd. 5 N.Y.2d 719, 177 N.Y.S.2d 707, 152 N.E.2d 665; accord Matter of Liebman, 44 Misc.2d 191, 253 N.Y.S.2d 461).

Shamsee v. Shamsee, 51 A.D.2d 1028, 1028, 381 N.Y.S.2d 127, 127 (1976).

 

[lswhitney]

Yes, well they have a marriage license, and a marriage certificate. The "pastor" is not officially a pastor. He went to school and all, but he has never been made a "clergyman " , that won't happen until this July, he is not really a pastor. It would be like any Jo marrying them, I can't marry someone, so why can someone else without the "right" and that makes it legal? I thought it had to be officiated by a specific legalized individual.

 

[Just Blue]

Yes, well they have a marriage license, and a marriage certificate. The "pastor" is not officially a pastor. He went to school and all, but he has never been made a "clergyman " , that won't happen until this July, he is not really a pastor. It would be like any Jo marrying them, I can't marry someone, so why can someone else without the "right" and that makes it legal? I thought it had to be officiated by a specific legalized individual.

Why are you so angry about this?

 

[lswhitney]

This is not anger, I am just trying to get an understanding if my daughter "needs" to pay for a divorce, if it is not a valid marriage. No other reason or "anger". If you are not qualified to respond then I will wait to get a qualified response. Thank you.

 

[Just Blue]

This is not anger, I am just trying to get an understanding if my daughter "needs" to pay for a divorce, if it is not a valid marriage. No other reason or "anger". If you are not qualified to respond then I will wait to get a qualified response. Thank you.

Yes. She needs to divorce and you need to MYOB.

 

[stealth2]

This is not anger, I am just trying to get an understanding if my daughter "needs" to pay for a divorce, if it is not a valid marriage. No other reason or "anger". If you are not qualified to respond then I will wait to get a qualified response. Thank you.

Then perhaps you should help her pay for a lawyer to find out.

 

[Zigner]

Let me ask you this - and consider it honestly: If they weren't divorcing, would you be concerned in the slightest about this?

 

[LdiJ]

Yes, well they have a marriage license, and a marriage certificate. The "pastor" is not officially a pastor. He went to school and all, but he has never been made a "clergyman " , that won't happen until this July, he is not really a pastor. It would be like any Jo marrying them, I can't marry someone, so why can someone else without the "right" and that makes it legal? I thought it had to be officiated by a specific legalized individual.

Then they have a legal marriage.

 

[Just Blue]

Let me ask you this - and consider it honestly: If they weren't divorcing, would you be concerned in the slightest about this?

If she were to answer this honestly she might have to admit she is angry.

 

[Zigner]

Then they have a legal marriage.

It is entirely possible for a couple to have a marriage license and a marriage certificate, yet not have a "legal marriage."

For example: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2014/dom/article-2/5/ and https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2014/dom/article-2/6/

 

[LdiJ]

It is entirely possible for a couple to have a marriage license and a marriage certificate, yet not have a "legal marriage."

For example: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2014/dom/article-2/5/ and https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2014/dom/article-2/6/

Yes, but there is no indication here that we are talking about incest or bigamy, which would be void or voidable marriages. The only indication here is that that the person performing the marriage ceremony might not have been a full fledged pastor.