Looking for opinions/crystal balls

[MamaMolly]

I just typed out my whole story and questions and it ended up being WAY too long to hold anyone's interest.

So I will make this as short as I can and then provide details as a follow up if necessary.

Jurisdiction is in Kansas.

CP wants to send one of the children (there are 2) 6 days late for summer visitation. CP has offered to add 6 days to the end. NCP disagrees and refuses because (1) this happened last year with horrible results for the children, and it was discussed then that it is in the children's best interest to follow the current orders. At that time CP agreed. (2) since CP wants it to apply to only one child, it would force a 10 year old to travel for more than 24 hours and an overseas flight (NCP is military) alone except for a stranger (airline chaperone).

The dates for summer visitation are clearly spelled out in the court order so there is no ambiguity there. The order also states that any disputes between the parties must be submitted to (a specific) Mediation Sevices. CP has refused to mediate. NCP has correspondence in writing from the mediation services that CP did indeed refuse.

Based on this (and if I need to provide more info) what do you (the collective you) think might happen from here if CP files any sort of motion in court? NCP does have a lawyer working on it, but information is so slow...I am just looking to get a feeling for what might happen.

And one more quick question... if CP waits to file anything in court until the proverbial last minute, would the current order stand and the children be allowed to travel on the proper date or would visitation be "on hold" until it was heard? That is very worrisome for us because it is possible the court date would not be until June or July- well into NCP's time.

Is there anything else that NCP should be doing to protect visitation and follow the court order or is waiting to see if CP files the only course of action at this point?

I know that this might sound petty to a lot of people, and quite frankly, ordinarily it would not be an issue for us either but as I said, it was done last year and was very detrimental to the children. Shifting the first 6 days to the end of summer caused them to miss the first days of school, both expressed great angst over starting school "late" and both deeply regretted not having time to reconnect with their peers before being thrown into the daily school schedule. There is also a 16 hour time difference from which the children must recover as well as the long travel time; it seems cruel to expect them to go right back to school the day after they get back, or even within 2 days. NCP is standing firm on this only because of the best interest of the children involved.

Thanks

 

[stealth2]

What is the reason for the requested shift?

 

[MamaMolly]

What is the reason for the requested shift?

Yes,I should have included that. The child is enrolled in a dance class that has a final session in June ( she is scheduled to travel May 28). It is pertinent that this is the same reason for the deviation last year, and this year the child has repeatedly stated (without being asked) that she was NOT taking the class again because it ineterfered with summer.

The first time NCP was made aware of the fact that child is in this dance class at all was the day airline tickets were to be purchased when CP emailed to advise him not to "waste the money" on a ticket for this child.

The dance class is not on a professional track or anything like that. It is more of an after school program than anything, teaching tap, jazz, and ballet one hour or less per week. (NCP telephoned the director after finding out about it before responding to CP's request.)

It might also be pertinent that child is scheduled to take classes here (NCP's location) at her request. The classes (gymnastics and cheerleading for elementary age) begin on June 1, so if she stays for one activity she will be missing another. NCP does not agree that activities scheduled by CP should take precedence over activities scheduled by NCP when it is on NCP's time.

Also, there is nothing in the court order addressing any extra-curricular or outside activities at all.

Edited because gymnastics should only have one "a".

 

[NotSoNew]

i agree we need to reason why one child is being withheld for 6 days? if the reasons is not a very good one i cant see that this would be favored by a judge.

also if CP filed and the court date was not until into NCPs time, NCP would still get the time, it would not be held off because of an impending court date.

 

[NotSoNew]

sorry you responded as i was posting, i dont feel a dance class is a valid reason to send one child 6 days late. as you stated CP can not schedule extrcircular activities on NCPs time. However if CP does not send the child you have no recourse before hand, you have to wait until the child is late and file contempt.

you could always take the child 6 days late and not keep her for the extra 6 days at the end, to make it less traumatic for their return, but you shouldnt HAVE to do that.

 

[LdiJ]

You know....I really think that this could be kind of petty. Mom isn't offering less time, she is just asking for a relatively small change.

In my opinion, I would find out which activities are the most important to the child (the dance or the activities you have scheduled) and then decide accordingly.....and use the same schedule for both kids.

I realize that sometimes its not possible to compromise with the other parent...but really, if you can learn to work together these things really shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[stealth2]

I think if it causes a problem on the other end of the summer wrt school, I'd leave it as ordered.

 

[MamaMolly]

you could always take the child 6 days late and not keep her for the extra 6 days at the end, to make it less traumatic for their return, but you shouldnt HAVE to do that.

That is true and if this were ordinary circumstances NCP would do just that. However since we are overseas, summer is the ONLY time NCP has with the children. He is court ordered every other spring break/Christmas as well, but since we have been here he has been deployed or TDY during those times so in reality summer is the only time he has. He cherishes each minute with the children and refuses to give that up. He does telephone the children weekly and emails the older one often (younger one is not allowed email access by CP) but it is not the same as being with them.

 

[casa]

I just typed out my whole story and questions and it ended up being WAY too long to hold anyone's interest.

So I will make this as short as I can and then provide details as a follow up if necessary.

Jurisdiction is in Kansas.

CP wants to send one of the children (there are 2) 6 days late for summer visitation. CP has offered to add 6 days to the end. NCP disagrees and refuses because (1) this happened last year with horrible results for the children, and it was discussed then that it is in the children's best interest to follow the current orders. At that time CP agreed. (2) since CP wants it to apply to only one child, it would force a 10 year old to travel for more than 24 hours and an overseas flight (NCP is military) alone except for a stranger (airline chaperone).

The dates for summer visitation are clearly spelled out in the court order so there is no ambiguity there. The order also states that any disputes between the parties must be submitted to (a specific) Mediation Sevices. CP has refused to mediate. NCP has correspondence in writing from the mediation services that CP did indeed refuse.

Based on this (and if I need to provide more info) what do you (the collective you) think might happen from here if CP files any sort of motion in court? NCP does have a lawyer working on it, but information is so slow...I am just looking to get a feeling for what might happen.

And one more quick question... if CP waits to file anything in court until the proverbial last minute, would the current order stand and the children be allowed to travel on the proper date or would visitation be "on hold" until it was heard? That is very worrisome for us because it is possible the court date would not be until June or July- well into NCP's time.

Is there anything else that NCP should be doing to protect visitation and follow the court order or is waiting to see if CP files the only course of action at this point?

I know that this might sound petty to a lot of people, and quite frankly, ordinarily it would not be an issue for us either but as I said, it was done last year and was very detrimental to the children. Shifting the first 6 days to the end of summer caused them to miss the first days of school, both expressed great angst over starting school "late" and both deeply regretted not having time to reconnect with their peers before being thrown into the daily school schedule. There is also a 16 hour time difference from which the children must recover as well as the long travel time; it seems cruel to expect them to go right back to school the day after they get back, or even within 2 days. NCP is standing firm on this only because of the best interest of the children involved.

Thanks

If you both can't agree, then it defaults to what the court order states. The problem is if CP doesn't cooperate- it's unlikely you'd get the matter heard/ruled on by the time they are set to visit. However, I doubt a judge would look kindly on CP for scheduling anything during the NCPs visitation time (especially with the current supportive environment in the courts for military members).

I disagree with previous poster re; asking the child which is more important to them~ as this puts them in the middle...and in a position to upset one parent either way. The parents should handle this situation.

I'm a CP of a daughter almost same age- father is military- I put his visitation above/beyond any extra-curricular activities. There time is limited enough, without 'shaving' off visitation time for a dance class. I realize this doesn't help you- since you are the NCP...Just wanted you to know that I think your request is more than reasonable.

 

[casa]

That is true and if this were ordinary circumstances NCP would do just that. However since we are overseas, summer is the ONLY time NCP has with the children. He is court ordered every other spring break/Christmas as well, but since we have been here he has been deployed or TDY during those times so in reality summer is the only time he has. He cherishes each minute with the children and refuses to give that up. He does telephone the children weekly and emails the older one often (younger one is not allowed email access by CP) but it is not the same as being with them.

Has NCP suggested web conferencing for the children? I set up times for my daughter to use the webcam to visit her father. We have a microphone so they can talk to one another. They both really enjoy getting to 'see' each other.

 

[MamaMolly]

I realize that sometimes its not possible to compromise with the other parent...but really, if you can learn to work together these things really shouldn't be a big deal.

NCP has no problem with compromise and is more than willing to work it out. Definitely do not want a court apperance out of this. But as I said, NCP did allow this last year, both children arrived late, made up time at the end and it caused serious problems for both. The older was bothered to the point that it required counseling (it was the first days of high school that were missed) this could possibly be the reason for CP wanting to separate the children this time; and both had problems "catching up" socially. It really did cause a lot of undue hardship for them.

When the situation was discussed at that time, it was agreed by both parents that it was better for the children to follow the court ordered dates.

As far as finding out from the child which activity is more important...that is nearly impossible. She tells NCP that she would prefer to come here on time and miss the final dance class, and tells CP she would rather stay there and miss the other classes. She also told NCP (without his asking) that she was not taking dance this year at all, and has repeated that statement on numerous occasions...we believe that CP has "encouraged" her to keep it from NCP, but of course there is no proof of that.

 

[MamaMolly]

Has NCP suggested web conferencing for the children? I set up times for my daughter to use the webcam to visit her father. We have a microphone so they can talk to one another. They both really enjoy getting to 'see' each other.

NCP has tried forever. NCP provided the computer, the camera and everything. CP refuses internet access at home period. NCP has offered to pay for the service (in fact this offer is made twice a year every year) and CP will not allow that, CP states that if NCP provides access, she will cancel the services, or disconnect her telephone line (which she has done before simply to keep NCP from being able to telephone the children). The older of the children emails frequently from school (NCP set up BOTH of the children with web based email accounts) but that is the only internet access they have. The younger one is too young to even email from the library without a parent, so it simply is not going to happen while she is with CP.

But I am going way off track here...

edited to correct a typo...please ignore any I left

 

[stepmomndad]

Yes,I should have included that. The child is enrolled in a dance class that has a final session in June ( she is scheduled to travel May 28). It is pertinent that this is the same reason for the deviation last year, and this year the child has repeatedly stated (without being asked) that she was NOT taking the class again because it ineterfered with summer.

[/QUOTE]It might also be pertinent that child is scheduled to take classes here (NCP's location) at her request. The classes (gymnastics and cheerleading for elementary age) begin on June 1, so if she stays for one activity she will be missing another. NCP does not agree that activities scheduled by CP should take precedence over activities scheduled by NCP when it is on NCP's time.[/QUOTE]

It clearly states that the child does NOT want to take the class again because of interfering with NCP's time. Also, the child DOES want to take the classes at NCP's. The best thing is to allow the children to go to NCP's on the time as scheduled, since it caused problems last year and the children do want to go at that time.

 

[MamaMolly]

Actually the child never said she didn't WANT to take dance. She told NCP (unprompted) that she WASN'T taking dance this year, when he asked why she said because it interfered with summer (well not those exact words...but that was the gist of it). When the current "dispute" came up, just a few weeks ago she told NCP that she wanted to come here on time, but CP says she told her just the opposite. NCP would never ask the child directly what she wants to do with regard to visitation because (1) the decision is not up to her and (2) he would not want her involved in "adult issues"; CP lays enough guilt on the children for both of them. He would never want to contribute to the child feeling torn between her loyalties to both of her parents.

And being the wife of NCP in this situation, I wholeheartedly agree that the best thing to do is follow the court order and for the children to arrive on schedule. I agree with my husband's assessment that it is in his children's best interest to do so.

What has us worried right now, is the interminible waiting to see what happens next.

NCP's lawyer is wonderful about keeping him/us informed, but CP's lawyer is not returning her messages right now. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there is really nothing for NCP to do until CP actually violates the order and fails to send the child(ren) at which time he can file a motion for contempt.

However, CP stated (through her lawyer who called NCP directly) that she intends to "file a motion to allow the one child to stay behind". That was weeks ago... and we have not heard anything since. Usually airline tickets are purchased by February because the costs increase substantially the closer to the date when traveling to our current location.

NCP and CP split costs; usually by splitting the costs of round-trip tickets, but due to CP not wanting to cooperate or communicate this year NCP is buying one-way to here and CP is buying one-way for the return trip which already nearly doubles the costs to each of them. So it is really in CP's best interest (if not the children's) to work this out as quickly as possible. I hate to give out too much personal information, but we are stationed in a rather difficult to get to country. Plane tickets run approx. $1200.00 for each child one-way, plus unaccompanied minors' fees, so we are talking around $3000 to each parent if the tickets are purchased well in advance. (Which neither can comfortably afford, my husband scrimps and saves all year to add to our tax refunds to be used for this purpose.)

Tickets purchased "last minute" can be over $2000 each. IMO that is a pretty significant motivation to resolve this issue as quickly as possible.

But again, I am veering way off here...what I really wonder- and this is where the crystal balls come in is: If CP files whatever motion, is it likely to be granted (I know, I know....never know what the judge will do) and is there even grounds for a motion since nothing in the order has been violated (by NCP anyway) nor is she claiming any violations and CP has refused mediation (as written in the order)? And if CP files something can it put visitaion "on hold" until it is ruled upon?

I believe as casa said that the original order will prevail until the hearing; at least in theory NCP should get the children as ordered. But if CP refuses to send them pending the outcome of the hearing, and uses that as a defense for contempt, how likely would she be prevail? I know....who knows what the judge will do again, but based on your (collective) experiences what would your educated (or noneducated) guess be?

 

[casa]

Actually the child never said she didn't WANT to take dance. She told NCP (unprompted) that she WASN'T taking dance this year, when he asked why she said because it interfered with summer (well not those exact words...but that was the gist of it). When the current "dispute" came up, just a few weeks ago she told NCP that she wanted to come here on time, but CP says she told her just the opposite. NCP would never ask the child directly what she wants to do with regard to visitation because (1) the decision is not up to her and (2) he would not want her involved in "adult issues"; CP lays enough guilt on the children for both of them. He would never want to contribute to the child feeling torn between her loyalties to both of her parents.

And being the wife of NCP in this situation, I wholeheartedly agree that the best thing to do is follow the court order and for the children to arrive on schedule. I agree with my husband's assessment that it is in his children's best interest to do so.

What has us worried right now, is the interminible waiting to see what happens next.

NCP's lawyer is wonderful about keeping him/us informed, but CP's lawyer is not returning her messages right now. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there is really nothing for NCP to do until CP actually violates the order and fails to send the child(ren) at which time he can file a motion for contempt.

However, CP stated (through her lawyer who called NCP directly) that she intends to "file a motion to allow the one child to stay behind". That was weeks ago... and we have not heard anything since. Usually airline tickets are purchased by February because the costs increase substantially the closer to the date when traveling to our current location.

NCP and CP split costs; usually by splitting the costs of round-trip tickets, but due to CP not wanting to cooperate or communicate this year NCP is buying one-way to here and CP is buying one-way for the return trip which already nearly doubles the costs to each of them. So it is really in CP's best interest (if not the children's) to work this out as quickly as possible. I hate to give out too much personal information, but we are stationed in a rather difficult to get to country. Plane tickets run approx. $1200.00 for each child one-way, plus unaccompanied minors' fees, so we are talking around $3000 to each parent if the tickets are purchased well in advance. (Which neither can comfortably afford, my husband scrimps and saves all year to add to our tax refunds to be used for this purpose.)

Tickets purchased "last minute" can be over $2000 each. IMO that is a pretty significant motivation to resolve this issue as quickly as possible.

But again, I am veering way off here...what I really wonder- and this is where the crystal balls come in is: If CP files whatever motion, is it likely to be granted (I know, I know....never know what the judge will do) and is there even grounds for a motion since nothing in the order has been violated (by NCP anyway) nor is she claiming any violations and CP has refused mediation (as written in the order)? And if CP files something can it put visitaion "on hold" until it is ruled upon?

I believe as casa said that the original order will prevail until the hearing; at least in theory NCP should get the children as ordered. But if CP refuses to send them pending the outcome of the hearing, and uses that as a defense for contempt, how likely would she be prevail? I know....who knows what the judge will do again, but based on your (collective) experiences what would your educated (or noneducated) guess be?

Not following the court order is clearly contempt...however contempt in court is usually only handled by an admonishment &/or order to enforce visitations (unless/until it continues- then it escalates to fines, even jail time and custody changes).

NCP should also document & keep any correspondence with CP re; this issue...to prove they've discussed it already and came to an agreement- which is to follow the court orders & not change the schedule this year- then the CP didn't follow through with either. A judge would most likely order the CP to follow the court order in the future.