mediation or custody? need advice

[GrandmaK]

What is the name of your state? Wisconsin
My unmarried daughter is keeping my grandchildren, ages 3 and 6, from me out of spite, to punish me. She is unstable in the sense that she has never held a job longer than one year (she is 28, no college), has no savings, no insurance, has been evicted once and is now in the process of being evicted again, has no friends other than her son's father (they are friends; he has lived with a half a dozen other girlfriends since his son's birth in 1999), and she has no family contact other than with me, and even that stopped two months ago. I have been a major part of my grandkids' lives: in my grandson's case, since he was six months old; in my granddaughter's case, since the day she was born. We have all lived together for more than 24 months over the past 3-1/2 years, due to my daughter's previous evicted and her inability to keep a job to provide for her children and my concern over my grandkids having a roof over their heads. I have helped her out in more ways, more times than I can count, for the kids' sakes. As a last attempt, I co-signed an apartment for her three months ago. Though she is working full-time, she couldn't even pay the first months rent (which I ended up paying for her) and here we are three months later and she is being evicted again. In the past, she has withheled the kids from me for a week or two at a time whenever she felt I slighted her in some way. This past time is because I appeared in court on her behalf to contest the eviction. (She declined to even show up.) She told me that my going to court was not was what was best for the kids (in her mind), and since I've always said I want what's best for them, that must mean that I don't want to see them anymore. I cannot follow this logic, maybe one of you can help me with it. Anyway, I miss my grandkids' terribly and I know they are asking to see me and want to be with me, but my daughter believes that punishing me in this way is more important than the welfare of her children. I spoke with a mediator (impartial third-party) and invited her to attend mediation with me, but she refuses to respond. I am worried about my grandkids being homeless at the end of the month (no sane landlord will rent to her after two evictions in three years). Does anyone know what the laws in Wisconsin say in regard to grandparents getting custody, temporary or otherwise? I feel that they will require mediation, even though she has refused it voluntarily. I am a young grandmother, 45 years old, and am single, but have strong family ties, with my mother, two sisters, one brother, in-laws, and nieces and nephews all living within 1/2 hour of me. My grandkids know my family and we all get along. My family misses seeing them also. (My daughter has had little to do with them over the years, but has never refused me when I asked to take my grandchildren to family gatherings over the years.) There's so much more I could say, but I'll stop here. Please share with me whatever you know about a situation like this in Wisconsin. I want to see my grandchildren!

 

[LdiJ]

First, you have no basis for custody. Your daughter and the father are not unfit from a legal standpoint and that is the only way that you, as a third party, could obtain custody.

If she was truly homeless (ie living out of her car) then DAD might have a basis for custody, but not you.

Visitation is also problematic. You may have some standing for visitation but if both parents unite against you it would be a difficult case to win. It would also be very expensive. In addition, you would probably permanently estrange yourself from your daughter in the process. If you lose, you probably would lose all chance of seeing your grandchildren again.

Give it time. Even asking her to go to a mediator with you could be perceived by her as a hostile act....as an attempt to get legal rights to her children. No parent is going to willingly agree to something like that. I understand that you miss your grandchildren, but don't take the risk of making things MUCH worse by involving the courts. It will NOT make things better.

 

[rmet4nzkx]

It is obvious that you love your daughter and your grandchildren and want what is best for them and this is difficult because no matter what you do, mom sabotages any and all efforts. This is about the best interest of the children, not grandparent's rights or parent's rights.

My first question is, has paternity been established and are there custody and child support orders?
Does your daughter have any history of mental health or substance abuse issues?
Did your daughter have difficulty in school?
Does the children's father pay child support?
Rather than petitioning for visitaiton or mediation at this point, it might be best to petition the court to appoint a Guardian ad Litum for the children, this is an objective person, usually an attorney that represents the children and they can help in situaitons like this, especially with them once again facing homelessness. It also takes the pressure off you if you have to use tough love on your daughter.
wsll.state.wi.us/topic/familylaw/guardian.html

 

[GrandmaK]

It is obvious that you love your daughter and your grandchildren and want what is best for them and this is difficult because no matter what you do, mom sabotages any and all efforts. This is about the best interest of the children, not grandparent's rights or parent's rights.

My first question is, has paternity been established and are there custody and child support orders?
Does your daughter have any history of mental health or substance abuse issues?
Did your daughter have difficulty in school?
Does the children's father pay child support?
Rather than petitioning for visitaiton or mediation at this point, it might be best to petition the court to appoint a Guardian ad Litum for the children, this is an objective person, usually an attorney that represents the children and they can help in situaitons like this, especially with them once again facing homelessness. It also takes the pressure off you if you have to use tough love on your daughter.
wsll.state.wi.us/topic/familylaw/guardian.html

Paternity is established for both children; however, my grandson's father wouldn't want custody. He is immature but is at least sensible enough to admit that his priorities don't include raising his son. He pays child support through garnishment of his wages. My granddaughter's father has no interest in her; he lives in the same town, but doesn't even want visitation rights. My daughter definitely has some mental and emotional health issues. I suspect she may have a bipolar disorder or, at the very least, some mild schizophrenia/paranoia. (She has even voiced this fear to me herself.) She's always had trouble finishing or succeeding in anything and everything, including school, jobs, all types of relationships), hobbies--you name it. Her behavior is often so extreme that she fits the description of "psychopathic personality" (according to Merriam-Webster). Can you see why I am so worried about my grandchildren? They are at very impressionable ages and I don't see any hope for their lives becoming any better if my daughter cannot even keep a roof over their heads. She will be 29 years old next month and past the time when she should be more settled and responsible for her kids' sakes.
I don't want to act rashly, but I truly worry about the welfare of my grandchildren with her. I will always put their well-being and safety above her feelings, because they are just children and have no one else, who loves them, who cares about their best interests. The main reason I have overlooked her minor verbal and physical abuses and neglect towards them is because I knew I was there to counteract her misbehavior and protect them. Not being there for them now is killing me.

 

[LdiJ]

Paternity is established for both children; however, my grandson's father wouldn't want custody. He is immature but is at least sensible enough to admit that his priorities don't include raising his son. He pays child support through garnishment of his wages. My granddaughter's father has no interest in her; he lives in the same town, but doesn't even want visitation rights. My daughter definitely has some mental and emotional health issues. I suspect she may have a bipolar disorder or, at the very least, some mild schizophrenia/paranoia. (She has even voiced this fear to me herself.) She's always had trouble finishing or succeeding in anything and everything, including school, jobs, all types of relationships), hobbies--you name it. Her behavior is often so extreme that she fits the description of "psychopathic personality" (according to Merriam-Webster). Can you see why I am so worried about my grandchildren? They are at very impressionable ages and I don't see any hope for their lives becoming any better if my daughter cannot even keep a roof over their heads. She will be 29 years old next month and past the time when she should be more settled and responsible for her kids' sakes.
I don't want to act rashly, but I truly worry about the welfare of my grandchildren with her. I will always put their well-being and safety above her feelings, because they are just children and have no one else, who loves them, who cares about their best interests. The main reason I have overlooked her minor verbal and physical abuses and neglect towards them is because I knew I was there to counteract her misbehavior and protect them. Not being there for them now is killing me.

I do understand your feelings and concerns. However, again, you have no basis for custody and if you have no basis for custody you also have no basis to ask the court to appoint a GAL for the children either. Your daughter has no documented history of mental illness.

Also, don't be so certain that dad wouldn't want custody if he didn't have to fight hard to get it. Remember, that would get him out of paying child support.

You can certainly get a consult with a local attorney to see what might be possible. However, if you decide to go the court route then you need to be prepared to potentially lose your daughter and your grandchildren for good. If the situation is bad enough to warrant that risk, then by all means do that. However if its not, then don't take that risk.

 

[Ithildriel]

Paternity is established for both children; however, my grandson's father wouldn't want custody. He is immature but is at least sensible enough to admit that his priorities don't include raising his son. He pays child support through garnishment of his wages. My granddaughter's father has no interest in her; he lives in the same town, but doesn't even want visitation rights. My daughter definitely has some mental and emotional health issues. I suspect she may have a bipolar disorder or, at the very least, some mild schizophrenia/paranoia. (She has even voiced this fear to me herself.) She's always had trouble finishing or succeeding in anything and everything, including school, jobs, all types of relationships), hobbies--you name it. Her behavior is often so extreme that she fits the description of "psychopathic personality" (according to Merriam-Webster). Can you see why I am so worried about my grandchildren? They are at very impressionable ages and I don't see any hope for their lives becoming any better if my daughter cannot even keep a roof over their heads. She will be 29 years old next month and past the time when she should be more settled and responsible for her kids' sakes.
I don't want to act rashly, but I truly worry about the welfare of my grandchildren with her. I will always put their well-being and safety above her feelings, because they are just children and have no one else, who loves them, who cares about their best interests. The main reason I have overlooked her minor verbal and physical abuses and neglect towards them is because I knew I was there to counteract her misbehavior and protect them. Not being there for them now is killing me.

Maybe I missed something, or am out of line, but I have to ask. If you are concerned about your grands being on the street, and you believe your daughter is mentally ill, have you offered her your home again since this recent eviction?

 

[GrandmaK]

Maybe I missed something, or am out of line, but I have to ask. If you are concerned about your grands being on the street, and you believe your daughter is mentally ill, have you offered her your home again since this recent eviction?

You are not out of line; it is a valid question. There are just so many layers to this ongoing saga that I couldn't explain our relationship in a month of Sundays. When my daughter was handed her first eviction in summer 2004, I did take them in and almost got evicted myself because of it. I had lived in my current residence for one month and she assured me she had a place to go in two weeks if I would let them stay here. Well, two weeks turned into 15 months and the only reason she left was because I was served notice to resolve the situation or get evicted myself. My lease was for a single person and, with her and the kids, there were four people here. So I lived in anxiety for those many months of the landlord finding out, so when someone reported the violation, I was actually relieved because I am not a dishonest person and was tired of hiding this deception. Toward the end, I made her the proposition that, if she would find a permanent job and save enough for a security deposit, I would leave this apartment and we would find a large place we could rent together. She was all for that, but never made any progress toward saving any money or obtaining a job. So there you are. I'm willing to take in the kids and work out something with the landlord if possible, but I am not willing to take in my daughter given my current situation.
As for not having any rights—as a grandparent who has been more of a parent to those children than their own fathers—that is just morally wrong even if it is legally right. I am willing to go the distance and risk the consequences if that is what it takes to draw attention to her inability to give those children a decent home. I am still holding onto hope for mediation, because I believe that is the best way for us to create an amicable relationship that is acceptable to all of us, but I cannot wait forever for her to grow up and stop punishing me.
Thanks to all for your input. Nothing has been resolved for me, but it has helped to get others' input.

 

[IrishLady47]

Please correct me if I have misread, but it seems you are now renting a place only suited for one person and could not afford a larger place without someone to share the expense. So, as things stand now, you are not in a much better position than your daughter to physically or financially provide for your grandchildren (long-term) by yourself. But right now you do have a roof over your head & she w/children does not.

Legally, I do not think this gives you much of an advantage as far as gaining custody even if she were found unfit. The chidren's fathers do not appear fit either, but they have an inherent custodial right to the children you do not. You possess more emotional stability--which is very important--but children require more than love to survive.

Considering extended family, is there anyone in the cast of characters that has the resources to be fit guardians, the willingness, and who your daughter might consider agreeing to temporary custody because she is not in a spite battle like she is with you?

This is the best hope for the children. Otherwise, children social services will probably have to step in & they don't always find the best solution either. Quite honestly, then it will be out of your hands. And, you can offer kinship foster care--but you'll have to qualify!

God bless the children and good luck to all of you.

 

[ceara19]

You are not out of line; it is a valid question. There are just so many layers to this ongoing saga that I couldn't explain our relationship in a month of Sundays. When my daughter was handed her first eviction in summer 2004, I did take them in and almost got evicted myself because of it. I had lived in my current residence for one month and she assured me she had a place to go in two weeks if I would let them stay here. Well, two weeks turned into 15 months and the only reason she left was because I was served notice to resolve the situation or get evicted myself. My lease was for a single person and, with her and the kids, there were four people here. So I lived in anxiety for those many months of the landlord finding out, so when someone reported the violation, I was actually relieved because I am not a dishonest person and was tired of hiding this deception. Toward the end, I made her the proposition that, if she would find a permanent job and save enough for a security deposit, I would leave this apartment and we would find a large place we could rent together. She was all for that, but never made any progress toward saving any money or obtaining a job. So there you are. I'm willing to take in the kids and work out something with the landlord if possible, but I am not willing to take in my daughter given my current situation.
As for not having any rights—as a grandparent who has been more of a parent to those children than their own fathers—that is just morally wrong even if it is legally right. I am willing to go the distance and risk the consequences if that is what it takes to draw attention to her inability to give those children a decent home. I am still holding onto hope for mediation, because I believe that is the best way for us to create an amicable relationship that is acceptable to all of us, but I cannot wait forever for her to grow up and stop punishing me.
Thanks to all for your input. Nothing has been resolved for me, but it has helped to get others' input.

Cases such as this are VERY expensive for the person asking for custody. While you DO have reason to be concerned, you don't have enough to win custody. You probably don't even have enough to warrant a trial.

As was previously pointed out, if you go into this without enough to win, you will probably NEVER see your daughter and grandchildren again. Then, if she does become legally unfit at some point in the future, you wouldn't even know about it, much less be able to help your grandkids.