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Military search of civilian propery.

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A

aaronh

Guest
What is the name of your state? Military base overseas.

I am a US Citizen and civilian employee of a US government contracting company. I am working overseas at a US Military installation. I live on the same installation in housing provided by the US government. Recently, the commanding officer, a two star Army General, of the unit that holds our contract has issued a General Order that implemented a search of our personal property every time we leave the post. This has been done under the auspices of “Operational Security”. The goal of the searches is to find any unauthorized classified information that may be intentionally or accidentally leaving the base. This rule applies not only to personnel that actually work in sensitive areas of the base, but also to their spouses, children, guests and anyone else who works for or is visiting someone that works for the Generals unit.

On top of the physical bag search that occurs a few hours before you leave, we also have to turn in all electronic devices, storage media, digital cameras, CDs, DVDs, and anything else that can hold data to the local “Network Help Desk” 72 hours before we leave so that it can be scanned for the previously mentioned classified or sensitive information. You have to provide them with all of the passwords to all of the software installed and any accessories that they would need to operate the devices.

Here is the question: Does a military commander have the authority to force me, a civilian, to turn in my property for 72 hours, thus depriving me of my property, when there is no probable cause or any specific reason to believe that my personal electronic devices will have sensitive government information on them. These devices were never used in a secure area nor is there a belief that they were used in a secure area. Also, the people that are conducting the searches are not Military Police or government law enforcement of any sort. They are the network support staff. The same people you would call in any organization when a printer doesn’t work or your computer acts funny. They have had no specific training and have no understanding of the responsibility associated with viewing other people’s private information. We have to turn in our passwords to every application. This exposes our tax and financial information in programs like Quicken. All of our digital photos are viewed by them.

Several items have been lost or broken during these inspections. That is whole other rant that I don’t need to continue here. The fact that the overall execution of these searches is a joke at best does not lessen that fact that they seem to amount unreasonable search and seizure of my property.

I welcome any comments and suggestions. I will provide more information as questions are asked. I am avoiding too many specifics to avoid actually compromising our operational security. I have had a security clearance for more than a decade. Dealing with reasonable searches has always been okay. This just goes too far.

Aaron
 


H

hexeliebe

Guest
Does a military commander have the authority to force me, a civilian, to turn in my property for 72 hours, thus depriving me of my property, when there is no probable cause or any specific reason to believe that my personal electronic devices will have sensitive government information on them.
Yes.

These devices were never used in a secure area nor is there a belief that they were used in a secure area.
Irrelevant.

Also, the people that are conducting the searches are not Military Police or government law enforcement of any sort. They are the network support staff. The same people you would call in any organization when a printer doesn’t work or your computer acts funny.
Again, irrelevant.

We have to turn in our passwords to every application. This exposes our tax and financial information in programs like Quicken. All of our digital photos are viewed by them.
Relevant if on your work computer. This computer belongs to the contractor and/or the military. Therefore you have no right to privacy. Keep personal information off the computers. As for the passwords, they don't belong to you.

The fact that the overall execution of these searches is a joke at best does not lessen that fact that they seem to amount unreasonable search and seizure of my property.
You live and work on a military installation. You are subject to military law. You are NOT subject to U.S. law.

Just so you know, as a security analyst for NATO I helped write (among other things) security procedures for Civilian Armed Guards (german) who were tasked with front-gate and patrol security at Bad Aibling Military Installation.

From what you have described here, you have a cakewalk compared to what we implemented there. And for good reason. Although you may be on a military installation, as was BA, the military is not the only organization operating from there.

The simple advice is, if you don't like the procedures, quit and return to the U.S.
 

HomeGuru

Senior Member
aaronh said:
What is the name of your state? Military base overseas.

I am a US Citizen and civilian employee of a US government contracting company. I am working overseas at a US Military installation. I live on the same installation in housing provided by the US government. Recently, the commanding officer, a two star Army General, of the unit that holds our contract has issued a General Order that implemented a search of our personal property every time we leave the post. This has been done under the auspices of “Operational Security”. The goal of the searches is to find any unauthorized classified information that may be intentionally or accidentally leaving the base. This rule applies not only to personnel that actually work in sensitive areas of the base, but also to their spouses, children, guests and anyone else who works for or is visiting someone that works for the Generals unit.

On top of the physical bag search that occurs a few hours before you leave, we also have to turn in all electronic devices, storage media, digital cameras, CDs, DVDs, and anything else that can hold data to the local “Network Help Desk” 72 hours before we leave so that it can be scanned for the previously mentioned classified or sensitive information. You have to provide them with all of the passwords to all of the software installed and any accessories that they would need to operate the devices.

Here is the question: Does a military commander have the authority to force me, a civilian, to turn in my property for 72 hours, thus depriving me of my property, when there is no probable cause or any specific reason to believe that my personal electronic devices will have sensitive government information on them. These devices were never used in a secure area nor is there a belief that they were used in a secure area. Also, the people that are conducting the searches are not Military Police or government law enforcement of any sort. They are the network support staff. The same people you would call in any organization when a printer doesn’t work or your computer acts funny. They have had no specific training and have no understanding of the responsibility associated with viewing other people’s private information. We have to turn in our passwords to every application. This exposes our tax and financial information in programs like Quicken. All of our digital photos are viewed by them.

Several items have been lost or broken during these inspections. That is whole other rant that I don’t need to continue here. The fact that the overall execution of these searches is a joke at best does not lessen that fact that they seem to amount unreasonable search and seizure of my property.

I welcome any comments and suggestions. I will provide more information as questions are asked. I am avoiding too many specifics to avoid actually compromising our operational security. I have had a security clearance for more than a decade. Dealing with reasonable searches has always been okay. This just goes too far.

Aaron
**A: the short answer is yes. And the long answer is yes.
 
A

aaronh

Guest
Clarification and comment

To clarify a little bit: The only property I am talking about is private property of mine, purchased by me and never used at work or for work: specifically, my personal laptop computer with Quicken on it and my personal PDA with all my passwords to all my accounts (not the classified military ones), my credit card info, etc.

This isn’t done when I enter or leave a secure area. It’s done only when I leave the base. This is also not a base wide policy. It only applies to the particular unit I work for. Any of the foreign nationals that we have working on the base don’t have to go through the same hassle even though they enter the same areas that I do. That’s what makes this policy so bad. There are so many loopholes and implementation flaws that it can’t be called sound.

I should have remembered that just because it’s a dumb order doesn’t mean it’s an illegal order.

Having said that, I still have three questions:
1) At what point does it become unreasonable for a commander to deprive me of my property with probable cause?

2) What recourse do I have if my property is damaged or lost while it is under the control of the people doing the inspection?

3) Some of the information on my personal computer is derived from other business dealings that I have that are not associated with this, or any, government job. In some cases, I have signed non-disclosure agreements covering this information. How is it possible for me to comply with the non-disclosure agreement and at the same time give up control of the information for 72 hours?

Thanks for your quick responses. Hexeliebe, I would be interested in discussing what you implemented. I try not to be the person that says that something is messed up but doesn’t offer anything better. I have several years experience in physical and information security. What bothers me most about the process is not that I have to go through it, but that it is so flawed. I would rather help implement a solid solution than help destroy a flawed attempt.

Aaron
 
H

hexeliebe

Guest
To further clarify:

To clarify a little bit: The only property I am talking about is private property of mine, purchased by me and never used at work or for work: specifically, my personal laptop computer with Quicken on it and my personal PDA with all my passwords to all my accounts (not the classified military ones), my credit card info, etc.
Irrelevant

I should have remembered that just because it’s a dumb order doesn’t mean it’s an illegal order.
BINGO! now you've got it.

1) At what point does it become unreasonable for a commander to deprive me of my property with probable cause?
When you no longer work for the contracter, are no longer accessing the base and are no longer in Europe. That's about it.

2) What recourse do I have if my property is damaged or lost while it is under the control of the people doing the inspection?
File a claim for the damage with the base legal officer.

3) Some of the information on my personal computer is derived from other business dealings that I have that are not associated with this, or any, government job. In some cases, I have signed non-disclosure agreements covering this information. How is it possible for me to comply with the non-disclosure agreement and at the same time give up control of the information for 72 hours?
Put the information on a CD, protable USB drive or other device that you do not take on-base.

Thanks for your quick responses. Hexeliebe, I would be interested in discussing what you implemented. I try not to be the person that says that something is messed up but doesn’t offer anything better. I have several years experience in physical and information security. What bothers me most about the process is not that I have to go through it, but that it is so flawed. I would rather help implement a solid solution than help destroy a flawed attempt.
The only thing I can tell you about BA is that the structure we implemented was FAR more intrusive and took students off school buses, sometimes body searches and involved Infra red and radar....and the only person ever to complain was the german citizen we ended up in an auto chase (me, MPs, German State Security and the Rosenheim German Police) through Rosenheim and the A-8 towards Munich.

His only crime, besides being stupid, was trying to picnic in the 'Antenna field' where it is posted "Eintrit Verboten." with this little ditty in both English and German. "Tresspassers may be shot".
 

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