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Need Help On Unemployment Appeal

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desperatation

Junior Member
What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? Ohio. I was employed by the same company for nearly 18 years and due to company downsizing I was let go along with the entire dept. This was in March 2014. I started with another company right away in April but then that company lost their contract and closed their doors in Sept 2014 and I filed for unemployment for the first time in my life. I received 4 checks then in November I became a victim of a money mule employment scam due to my resume being posted on Ohio Means Jobs which was an unemployment requirement and they got my contact information from my resume. However before I realized it was a scam I made the mistake of telling unemployment that I had gotten a job which I actually thought was legitimate at the time. I thought I was doing the right thing in telling them. But Once I realized it was a scam, I continued filing my weekly claim which they denied of course and I then appealed and provided all the information I could to let them know that what I thought was a legitimate job was really a scam. The scammers had created a website using the name, address and credentials of a legitimate franchise that was once in business in Jacksonville Florida but actually closed several years ago. I emailed this franchises company headquarters in Utah and they confirmed the website and the people behind it was scammers and they were diligently trying to get the website shut down. I provided this email as well as the police report case # I filed, copies of email correspondence with the scammers, told them I had to close my bank account, put an alert on my credit report and I filed a complaint with ic3.gov for internet crime. 3 weeks later they affirmed their decision and I filed another appeal. It's been 8 weeks now since I got an unemployment check and I ended up being forced to withdraw my 401K retirement just to pay my bills. How can I prove to unemployment I am not nor was I ever employed by this company that does not exist? I don't know what else I can do. It's Funny they can take your word when you say you got a job but they won't take your word when you say it wasn't legitimate even when you file week after week declaring you did not work that week or earn any compensation. Why would I lie and risk being prosecuted? All I know is this is a nightmare and I don't know what else to do to get them to believe me.
 


Chyvan

Member
Type in the decisions with their dates.

You might think you appealed, but some states have a "redetermination" process that pretty much rubber stamps the first determination. What I'm looking for is to know if you've gotten this in front of an ALJ or hearing officer that will actually look at things and the rationale as to just why they thought a bogus job was somehow a legitimate quit or refusal of work.

If you haven't been in front of an ALJ, you can still appeal again and get a hearing that will probably make all the difference in the world.
 

commentator

Senior Member
Okay, first of all, get out of your persecuted mind set, and quit with the nightmare and desperation malarkey. Unemployment insurance is not, and has never been a needs based program. Just because you're desperate and had to draw your 401K out and didn't get unemployment these weeks does not mean they're out to get you. Unemployment is strictly based on eligibility, determined by the examination of wage records and evidence given by the claimant and/or the employer. They have certain time limits to return these decisions. What you do for income in the meantime isn't relevant.

What has happened is that there has been some sort of misunderstanding, and you're having to explain the situation to them in order to reopen your claim. Okay, what you did, apparently, was call up the unemployment system and tell them you had a job, right? So you stopped your claim or requested that they stop your claim. This was not really necessary. Usually when you do it, they tell you to go on and file weekly certs up until the first week you have actually worked for the new company. Then you stop filing. But even though you received a formal job offer, or were told that you had a job, you still were eligible and should have kept filing for weeks of benefit until you had actually worked for this new employer a week.

What happens is that even though you've been told you're hired somewhere, you file claims for unemployment weeks (after they have passed, of course) as you are supposed to, until after the first week you have actually gone to work for this company and are going to be paid for the work you did. That first week, you look back, you've worked Sunday through Saturday, you'll be paid for it later, and therefore you simply do not file a certification for that week.

Any break in the claim certification process, any week you fail to file a certification will stop your claim. Before you can get any more benefits, you must request that your claim be reopened, and you will be given a new decision about the new job you have just accepted, worked at and then apparently, from the looks of things (at least on the surface) have quit.

A quit will disqualify you for unemployment benefits, unless you had a valid work related reason to quit the job. From the sound of this, either you did not actually work for this employer AT ALL, or you worked (you thought) and were not paid. Either way, your valid work related reason to quit should be that this employer proving to be part of some sort of scam, which I'm not clear about...what exactly were they doing to you? Other than getting all your information, they assured you that you were going to work, right?

But I am not totally comprehending what happened here. Did you actually work for this company any? Did you just receive a job offer to start so and so, or did you actually do work for them? It doesn't really sound like it, but did you? If so, then did you call the employment office back when you stopped working for them? Did they give you a decision saying you were now ineligible because you had quit a job? You say something about "three weeks later they affirmed their decision" but you don't mention what happened before that. Okay, so you received an initial decision denying benefits, right? You have then appealed THAT decision, right? So you've been denied twice since you tried to reopen the claim?

At this point, I'm not hearing anything that you're going to get another appeal if they don't approve the one you have filed recently. So "how can I get them to believe me?" is sort of a hopeless question here if what you've told them in the last two appeals are not getting the job done. I don't understand what you're telling them that is causing them to think you worked for wages and then quit the job, why they cannot see this job as a fraud. Have you provided them with the legitimate company's information so that they can talk to them about this scam?

They can, at some point, check very thoroughly to see if you received any wages from this company. They do not use your weekly certifications that you kept filing after you had stopped your own claim(?????) as proof you were not working or that you had no income. People tend to lie about these things sometimes. What you said on the weekly certification is not proof of anything.

But if this scam is getting your information through your postings on the state's employment system computers, the whole department should have some awareness of what is happening, should be able to see that you are one of the people who was scammed in this situation. Are there others?

It should work itself out eventually, but that you haven't received any checks while you were working it through the appeals process, and it has taken six to eight weeks is just the way it works. Even though you may be desperate, they don't take that into consideration. They just do the appeals as prescribed.

If you are approved to re open your claim, you should be back paid for these weeks you've been certifying for while the decisions were being made. But unemployment insurance isn't supposed to keep you from starving. It's not something you can count on to receive timely and keep you out of a financial crisis when you're having to appeal something. They didn't ask you any income questions when you filed, do not care if your wife makes $900,000 a year at her job, if ou are a trust fund baby or if you've lost your job and down to the last nickel you've got in your pocket.

But what I'm missing is exactly what happened between your accepting this job and telling the unemployment office you had a job and when you began filing weekly certifications for benefits. When did you tell them differently, and what was their decision, what does it say? And exactly what has taken place since then? It shouldn't be this hard to "make them understand."
 
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desperatation

Junior Member
Type in the decisions with their dates.

You might think you appealed, but some states have a "redetermination" process that pretty much rubber stamps the first determination. What I'm looking for is to know if you've gotten this in front of an ALJ or hearing officer that will actually look at things and the rationale as to just why they thought a bogus job was somehow a legitimate quit or refusal of work.

If you haven't been in front of an ALJ, you can still appeal again and get a hearing that will probably make all the difference in the world.
I have appealed twice. The first appeal was affirmed and I appealed that decision and sent additional documents showing the actual company has been closed for several years. I just got notified later today that my case was just turned over to the UCRC for a hearing. But no date has been set.
 

desperatation

Junior Member
Okay, first of all, get out of your persecuted mind set, and quit with the nightmare and desperation malarkey. Unemployment insurance is not, and has never been a needs based program. Just because you're desperate and had to draw your 401K out and didn't get unemployment these weeks does not mean they're out to get you. Unemployment is strictly based on eligibility, determined by the examination of wage records and evidence given by the claimant and/or the employer. They have certain time limits to return these decisions. What you do for income in the meantime isn't relevant.

What has happened is that there has been some sort of misunderstanding, and you're having to explain the situation to them in order to reopen your claim. Okay, what you did, apparently, was call up the unemployment system and tell them you had a job, right? So you stopped your claim or requested that they stop your claim. This was not really necessary. Usually when you do it, they tell you to go on and file weekly certs up until the first week you have actually worked for the new company. Then you stop filing. But even though you received a formal job offer, or were told that you had a job, you still were eligible and should have kept filing for weeks of benefit until you had actually worked for this new employer a week.

What happens is that even though you've been told you're hired somewhere, you file claims for unemployment weeks (after they have passed, of course) as you are supposed to, until after the first week you have actually gone to work for this company and are going to be paid for the work you did. That first week, you look back, you've worked Sunday through Saturday, you'll be paid for it later, and therefore you simply do not file a certification for that week.

Any break in the claim certification process, any week you fail to file a certification will stop your claim. Before you can get any more benefits, you must request that your claim be reopened, and you will be given a new decision about the new job you have just accepted, worked at and then apparently, from the looks of things (at least on the surface) have quit.

A quit will disqualify you for unemployment benefits, unless you had a valid work related reason to quit the job. From the sound of this, either you did not actually work for this employer AT ALL, or you worked (you thought) and were not paid. Either way, your valid work related reason to quit should be that this employer proving to be part of some sort of scam, which I'm not clear about...what exactly were they doing to you? Other than getting all your information, they assured you that you were going to work, right?

But I am not totally comprehending what happened here. Did you actually work for this company any? Did you just receive a job offer to start so and so, or did you actually do work for them? It doesn't really sound like it, but did you? If so, then did you call the employment office back when you stopped working for them? Did they give you a decision saying you were now ineligible because you had quit a job? You say something about "three weeks later they affirmed their decision" but you don't mention what happened before that. Okay, so you received an initial decision denying benefits, right? You have then appealed THAT decision, right? So you've been denied twice since you tried to reopen the claim?

At this point, I'm not hearing anything that you're going to get another appeal if they don't approve the one you have filed recently. So "how can I get them to believe me?" is sort of a hopeless question here if what you've told them in the last two appeals are not getting the job done. I don't understand what you're telling them that is causing them to think you worked for wages and then quit the job, why they cannot see this job as a fraud. Have you provided them with the legitimate company's information so that they can talk to them about this scam?

They can, at some point, check very thoroughly to see if you received any wages from this company. They do not use your weekly certifications that you kept filing after you had stopped your own claim(?????) as proof you were not working or that you had no income. People tend to lie about these things sometimes. What you said on the weekly certification is not proof of anything.

But if this scam is getting your information through your postings on the state's employment system computers, the whole department should have some awareness of what is happening, should be able to see that you are one of the people who was scammed in this situation. Are there others?

It should work itself out eventually, but that you haven't received any checks while you were working it through the appeals process, and it has taken six to eight weeks is just the way it works. Even though you may be desperate, they don't take that into consideration. They just do the appeals as prescribed.

If you are approved to re open your claim, you should be back paid for these weeks you've been certifying for while the decisions were being made. But unemployment insurance isn't supposed to keep you from starving. It's not something you can count on to receive timely and keep you out of a financial crisis when you're having to appeal something. They didn't ask you any income questions when you filed, do not care if your wife makes $900,000 a year at her job, if ou are a trust fund baby or if you've lost your job and down to the last nickel you've got in your pocket.

But what I'm missing is exactly what happened between your accepting this job and telling the unemployment office you had a job and when you began filing weekly certifications for benefits. When did you tell them differently, and what was their decision, what does it say? And exactly what has taken place since then? It shouldn't be this hard to "make them understand."
My claim was never closed I have been filing every week since I lost my job in Sept. Yes I told them on a Tuesday (after I had filed for the week) that I was hired by this company and was to start work the following Monday, however the scammers deposited $4320 into my bank account on Thursday and called me Friday morning and told me I was starting that day and to log into the "webpanel" to get the first Task which gave me 2 hours to withdraw that money and wire it to the Czech Republic to the "Programmer" and then send him the reference #s through the webpanel. Not realizing yet it was a scam although the whole transaction made me feel extremely uncomfortable, I did as they asked but then afterward I did not hear another word from "My Boss". The more I thought about what had happened the more uncomfortable I felt about it so I contacted the main headquarters in Utah for this franchised company on Monday to inquire about whether this person actually worked for the company and explained what had happened and they confirmed this was indeed a scam and they were trying diligently to shut down that website. So I went ahead and continued filing my weeks as scheduled however they held my claims starting that week Which was the week of Nov 17 and the reason was given after 2 more "held" weeks that I was denied because I had told them I was employed so I appealed the decision on Dec 2 with the full explanation of what had happened and have continued filing every week. They affirmed their decision the week of Christmas and I appealed that decision last week. I had sent them that email confirmation from the company headquarters along with all the email correspondence I had with the scammers and a copy of the detailed task I was asked to perform. But for some reason they still think this is a legitimate company and that I was employed by them even though they told me on the phone they never got a response back from that company and even after I sent Florida State corporation documents showing the company is closed and inactive on the 2nd appeal. Like I said above I just got word late this afternoon that it has been turned over to the UCRC and I will be scheduled for a hearing soon. No I never received any compensation for that "task" and yes there were others that fell for this scam as well according to the company headquarters. I have been tracking the IP address range this website was hosted on and discovered several other fake company websites they previously ran scam through that have since been shut down and they have just ran one that just got shut down last week and they are in the process of setting up another one as we speak.
 
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commentator

Senior Member
Okay I very rarely suggest this to people, but in your present situation, I would suggest that you speak with an attorney, perhaps one with particular expertise in labor and unemployment matters, to look at this and possibly write you a letter to be submitted with your appeal to the UCRC.

You should be able to submit additional information up to the time of the hearing, though you will not have an actual in person hearing with these people. They are a "review committee" which means they review the decision of the appeals tribunal.

I cannot imagine what you put on your appeal that would cause the adjudicators who are looking at it to miss that you were captured in this fraud and did not have a legitimate job which you then quit. (other than it's hard to believe anybody was this gullible.)

You should be able to submit additional information up till the point when your appeals review is actually held. If you absolutely can't afford to get an attorney to write you a letter, (and please do check with Legal Aid, I saw many of these type cases handled by the legal aid system for indigent clients) you call them and ask about submitting your own letter, in which you reiterate everything that has happened in this situation and tell them that you will continue to pursue this matter legally. Be sure and mention that you were contacted by these people through your resume posted on the state job search website as they had required you to do.

Lets see, they wired you a check for $4320 and tell you to wire it to Czech Republic with a Nigerian accent. No, I bet they only communicated with you in email so you couldn't hear their accents. But seriously, you were going to be working from home, huh? How could you not realize this was a scam from day one? Don't you ever watch TV?

But for some reason, I can't imagine WHAT, the appeals tribunal isn't picking up on this not being a genuine job. And hopefully, you have presented them with definitive information of the un-genuineness of it. I'd love to see what your decision denying benefits says, exactly.

You also need to be calling your state representative and state senator and/or contacting your congressperson's office in the area and asking them to take a look at your situation. DO NOT postpone doing this, call these offices today. I rarely tell people to do things like this, but if this situation is as you describe, you are about to lose your last appeal, and there doesn't seem to be proper communication between you and the appeals tribunal going on here. You want to get some light to shine on you personally and on your situation.
 

davew128

Senior Member
Did you also respond to the wealthy Nigerian general who was trying to get money out of his country too?

however the scammers deposited $4320 into my bank account on Thursday and called me Friday morning and told me I was starting that day and to log into the "webpanel" to get the first Task which gave me 2 hours to withdraw that money and wire it to the Czech Republic to the "Programmer" and then send him the reference #s through the webpanel.
 

Chyvan

Member
You should be able to submit additional information up to the time of the hearing, though you will not have an actual in person hearing with these people. They are a "review committee" which means they review the decision of the appeals tribunal.
I'm not convinced this person has had a hearing. http://www.web.ucrc.state.oh.us/index.stm "The Commission conducts fair due process hearings on previously issued ODJFS Unemployment Compensation decisions that have been appealed by the claimant or employer."

This person is mistating what's happened so far. A decision was issue, and she thinks she appealed, but what really happened is it was treated as a "redetermination" by the agency. Then it was affirmed, and she thinks she appealed again, but the ODJS treated it as a REQUEST for a hearing. She's either getting an in-person hearing or a telephone hearing. She's not at any review stage yet.

This hearing is the MOST important step in the whole process. You should read this http://www.web.ucrc.state.oh.us/FAQ/Questions.stm and do some of those things like get a copy of your ODJFS file and see if you can't get lucky with Legal Aid.

Also, I really wanted you to type in the decisions you've received so far because that is where you start in determining why you are being misunderstood that this was NO job.

the scammers deposited $4320 into my bank account on Thursday and called me Friday morning and told me I was starting that day and to log into the "webpanel" to get the first Task which gave me 2 hours to withdraw that money and wire it to the Czech Republic to the "Programmer" and then send him the reference #s through the webpanel. Not realizing yet it was a scam although the whole transaction made me feel extremely uncomfortable, I did as they asked but then afterward I did not hear another word from "My Boss".
How did they get the money in your account? I think your next worry is that you're going to be trying to convince the police that you weren't somehow complicit in some sort of bank fraud. I'm picturing a deposited check that is going to bounce, and since you already sent off the money, you're going to be in the negative with your bank.
 
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commentator

Senior Member
This is why this person needs to talk to the appeals tribunal and let them explain this to him/her. I am not positive he/she has had a second decision, either, but no one can tell them what's going on except someone within the system who has access to his/her appeals records. If they said it's going to the UCRC. (Board of Review) I think that's where it's about to go, because where would the claimant have gotten this type of information about the UCRC except through the decision and the letter they have written? Though there is no way we can tell from here, I suspect it's not a simple redetermination, I believe this separation has been adjudicated twice and IS going to the board of review at this point. So the claimant needs to do what I have recommended.

Forget trying to read and understand the jargon on the cited websites. You just need to get someone to help you at this point. You're not going to profit from reading a bunch of websites which may or may not apply to your particular case. Legal aid or an attorney, get someone to help you deal with this.

Mail fraud or bank fraud is not something that the unemployment system is going to be looking into. The claimant doesn't need to worry about this while working on this appeal.
 
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Chyvan

Member
If they said it's going to the UCRC. (Board of Review) I think that's where it's about to go, because where would the claimant have gotten this type of information about the UCRC except through the decision and the letter they have written? I suspect it's not a simple redetermination.
From here http://www.web.ucrc.state.oh.us/FAQ/Questions.stm the UCRC conducts hearings and reviews.

"What is the purpose of the hearing?

The purpose of the hearing is to gather all of the facts necessary to correctly decide the case based upon the unemployment compensation laws of the State of Ohio."

"What if I disagree with the decision?

Either party may appeal the hearing officer's decision to the Review Commission within twenty-one (21) days after the date the decision is mailed. The Commission may affirm the decision, reverse the decision without further hearing, or order another hearing. After a Commission level decision is issued, the parties have appeal rights to the Common Pleas Court."

She even says:

I just got notified later today that my case was just turned over to the UCRC for a hearing. But no date has been set.
Sure she can call to get clarification, but I don't know how long you've been out of the system. It's really really hard to get those people on the phone, and that's why they come on the internet for answers. While "redeterminations" are rare, there are at least two other states that I know of that use them frequently: MI and NJ and now I can add OH to my list.

Mail fraud or bank fraud is not something that the unemployment system is going to be looking into. The claimant doesn't need to worry about this while working on this appeal.
You're right the UI system won't care, but the bank that may be facing a loss will care.
 

commentator

Senior Member
What I am maintaining is that we cannot tell from the information we have at hand where this claimant is in the appeals system.

And I do understand that it is difficult to get in to the general information system for any state as it is right now. But when this person received the decision, there should have been some vehicle provided for them to file the next appeal. There should be a number for the appeals system, not the general informational system that everyone in the state calls in to. If he is unable to reach someone about submitting additional information to his appeal before the hearing or to obtain any more information about this hearing, then maybe his contact in the state official's office or his U.S. congressperson's office who can do so. I think he needs to do this.

A redetermination is sometimes done in all unemployment systems under certain circumstances. It may be what is going on, though under the circumstances as they've been described to us here I would doubt it. The decisions being made may be related to the money supposedly earned, not the separation circumstances. We don't have enough information to guess.

I believe that if the claimant has been told his next appeal is to the Board of Review, that may be where it is to. But we don't have the information to assume anything and advise the person that this is what is happening.

To quote general information from web sites about the standard appeals process as if it answered any questions that the claimant is dealing with right now is marginally helpful. What it tends to do is give most people more confusion, more of a guilty feeling that they should be able to figure this out, should go read this and be able to understand what is going on with them and what to do, and make them feel even less in control.

While some people enjoy reading all the details and understanding the whole process more thoroughly, most people in the outside world should not be required to have a great deal of expertise in unemployment claims in order to get a fair shake. The system is supposed to work so that people who are not well versed in claims processes can self represent, and it should work a little better than it sounds like this situation is working. Just from what we are hearing, I cannot see why they are denying benefits repeatedly. We don't have all the facts. Not even a few of them. There are always other sides to the story in appeals.

There are at least a few good and conscientious people working within the system who want it to work as it should. The claimant needs to find some of them.

From what I'm hearing, this person needs someone else's eyes on their situation, and they will, with some persistence, be able to get some answers more definite than we can give them here.
 
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