Need recent case info, Lillie/Felton similiarities

[aspiringparent]

What is the name of your state? CA
I am looking for a recent court case where a family went to court over a Lillie/Felton arguement for all they provided their child it allowed the child to do well even though they had a learning disability.

My child has come from private school to public to seek services we have provided privately after public denied the need to evaluate past a visual assessment 3 years ago. We did private testing and concluded daughter needed tutoring to learn to read, spell and write without using audio books or dictating answers. She has been tutored and through much intervention from us, accommodations in private school she has good grades and can do more but is still below grade level in spelling and reading, some writing too. She tests as gifted, but has .29 discrepancy in language processing. School contends teacher says she is doing fine as is and does not need service, we seek to finish remediation. They feel a 504 is all she needs.

I am looking for FAPE for a child that is working far below her expected performance in the areas described.

The IEP meeting today, which is 4 months over the timeline for completing the IEP ended at an impasse. There are many procedural errors on the part of the school and state complaints have been file. No lawyer hired due to funds spent on past years of remediation and private school and papertrailing has left no time for self employed mom to find work.

Diagnosis was to be ED but parent and advocate contend not enough criteria for that, OHI for ADD and anxiety with an SLD classification fits better. Commentary from principal and Spec Ed designee over they do not need to provide my child with anything more than CA state curriculum continued even though we brought up the Lillie/Felton. We contend they have purposely allowed lowered grading standards, and not expected curriculum standard for CA so she performs well. Teachers in other district have concluded that. We still have to allow her audio books instead of actually being able to read a grade level book. Aside from the adjusted grading we agree she has great grades. This is due to private help and high quallity education at private school. If let languish she will regress because she already has a diagnosis of anxiety and ADD. School refuses to offer more.

Anyone know of this recent court case that the courts favored the parents who proved it was the intervention on their part, (tutoring, extensive services) as opposed to the school districts arguement it didn't matter?

 

[notsmartmark]

Can you post her IQ, basic reading and written expression scores? Please identify the tests given and date, if outside the last year. Also, can you post the language processing test and score.

Is this one of your questions: If a student receives interventions that increase their skills that most likely eliminated the severe discrepancy between ablility and performance, can that student qualify as a student who requires special education?

Can you identify the supports that were provided that would continue to be necessary?

 

[aspiringparent]

Posting scores and history.

Extensive list compiled from the last several years.
Not sure what each and every test measured but I will list. I know what WISC was for and basic understanding of tests. Concerns were regarding reading below grade level, fluency, phonemic awareness, phonological processing, written expression, motor skills-handwriting and pencil grip issues very immature, slow processing( a given in ADD), sensory issues, and social skill issues were all concerns.

Ongoing concern since preschool but only speech was an apparent issue and was assessed. Public school said no big deal. Put child in private school up to 4th grade.

2 years later private assessment said speech was necessary, did 1.5 years to work on speech and memory skills. Processing skills were therapists reason to send us for an assessment. Audiologist was consulted, slight hearing loss was detected. Insurance sent us to two others. Renowned Audiology center said not progressive, slight loss, no profound affect but questioned auditory processing.


Private school in second grade - reading was a big concern, other items have become more apparent with maturity. Consulted a neurologist, not a full exam, but questioned again processing, lo tone, lo energy and possible depression. Public school was asked to do a full evaluation, did a visual assessment, an SST, would not go any further, "saw" no need. Anxiety and defiant behavior with sleep disturbances cropped up and very pronounced.

We started with Therapy, several types of tutoring to address reading and writing.

Educational therapist diagnosed ADHD with a TOVA test, meds were introduced for anxiety and ADHD in 3rd grade. Private school took suggestions from o a complete Language and Reading Assessment was done using Slossen and other tests but scores were not given. Told IQ very high, issues were found with reading and writing suggestions on types of tutoring and accommodations to use. Hired private tutor, private school put a 504 in place and offered some RSP services. Modified assignments, reading was done for child, dictation of answers were approved when work load was too much or if it were an essay or report, enrolled child in RFB&D with referral by Educational Therapist.

Vision Testing done, weak in tracking, convergence, and a few other areas, could not afford, used colored gels, eventually prism glasses. Began VT in August of 05

Child had numerous accidents over the years, couldn't afford OT gym so regular gymnastics were a substitute.

Educational therapist did WISC-1V September o4
Composite Score
VCI-116
PRI- 135
WMI- 94
PSI-109
Full Scale 120

7/04
Friend who is a Resource specialist helped do Woodcox Johnson test of achievement when we couldn't afford to. Where do I get basic reading and written expression scores? These scores were taken and listed in schools recent Psycho-Edu report. Are these the scores:

Broad Reading ss 96 39%
Broad Math SS 111 77%
Broad Written Language SS 100 50%


Current school did
DAS, VMI, WRML-II, Human figure drawing and Kinetic Family Drawing
but lost them in December. IEP was about 2.5 weeks over timeline when they decided to tell us. Asked to retest. Child claims WISC was done in November but not sure, school says it didn't use it twice.

January/February 06 Public school
WISC-1V
Composite Score
VCI - 108
PCI- 129
WMI - 83 (RSP advocate brought up concern over gap between this and VCI)
PSI-109
Full Scale 116 (I am concerned over the drop in scores instead of being higher)

Bender Visual -Motor Gestalt II
Concerns were raised over notes found in protocols, scoring was generous. School did not think so.
Visual- Motor Integration SS 117 87 percentile

CTOPP
SS Percentile
Elison 8 25
Blending Words 10 50
Memor for Digits 7 16
Rapid Digit Naming6 9
Nonword Repetition 8 25
Rapic Letter naming 8 25
Phonological Awareness94 35
Phonological Memeory 85 16
Rapid Naming 82 12

MVPT-R
Visual Perceptual Quotient 119 90 percentile

LET-II
Visual Memory SS 108
Auditory Memory SS 88
Global memory 101

Lions assessment from classrooms last Quarter
Unit #2 Reading skills Assessment
Comprehension 9/10 Above Benchmark (I was told it was read out loud, not by self)
Vocabulary - below benchmark (in preschool speech vocabulary was 2 years ahead)

Reading Fluency Scores
Fluency Test #2
1st reading passage score 76 Passing-119 Below Benchmark
2nd reading passage score 70 Passing - 119 Below benchmark

Lions Assessment #2 Written Language
Conventions - Spelling Punctuation 1 Below Benchmark

Sports were a problem, seemed unable to coordinate well, or distinguish directions or remember rules in soccer. Quit. Had to insist public school to test motor skills and do an OT assessment from October to mid January.

Auchenbachs were not handed out willingly after Educational Therapist insisted it be done. School Psych did not attempt to get parents evaluation, made up report without it but did score teachers.

2/06 Vision Therapy - Block 2 test
Garnder Reversal Recognition 9 %ile Performance Level Poor
DEM VErtical Automaticity 1-5 %ile Poor
TAPS ANM- Forward 25% Below Average
TAPS ANM-Reversed 5%ile Poor
PMA SPatioan VIsualization 77%ile Above average
Tachistoscope Visual Memory Recall 31%ile Below Average


IEP is over timeline by about 3 months. Vision Therapy was noted but left copies at home, will send to district. Spent 3 hours yesterday at IEP, couldn't finish need to reconvene at a later date. They wanted to label ED but no services, give a 504 only. Says teacher child's grades are good, we agree. The prinicipal says they are providing child with an appropriate education that lives up to CA state standards, we disagree.


School claims the child has good grades, we claim it is based on loose grading and not to a fifth grade level. Child has had remedial services privately and has shown definite improvement, but is still not at 5th grade level. We understand there is some resistance to providing any more assistance if we have been doing it, public school does not see the need since grades are good. They are ignoring the discrepancies, as well as we have had to fight to get appropriate testing done, currently GORT and something else has been added to the tests to be done.

There are 4 complaints currently filed with the state for procedural, FERPA and noncompliance violations, with a new one opened over 3 complaints, destruction of records before 3 years are up, former employee school has stated and director mentions discussing with the man, are on his computer.

We feel the school does not want to incur the costs of what this type of remediation will cost, and we are going to introduce at the end of the IEP a list of costs for all remedial services and ask that they pay for them. We are unhappy it has taken so long. We feel the school purposely destroyed records from 2003 so we could not review notes from conversations from former school Psych which would prove he did very little to assess and was Gatekeeping knowing we would go elsewhere for treatment. We are concerned that the remediation needs to be much more intense as child is heading into jr high with definite discrepancies. We can not accommodate for years to come like we are now.

I saw this post and thought perhaps someone would know the case law for a case such as ours. Besides the Lillie/Felton letter, is there anything new in case law that says a child can be considered gifted and have learning disabilities and need services to remediate? See anything else to help get our child what she needs?

 

[dallas702]

How much time do you spend helping her at home? If you can bring her at or close to grade level in basic calculation and communication skills she may hit a "finding point" and just take off. Lots of kids who stumble for awhile do very well later as long as the grasp the basic math and reading/writing fundamentals. That almost always requires learning the foundations by repetitive excercises. Rote has its place. How are your daughter's basic skills?

 

[aspiringparent]

Unfortunately it is not a stumbling block, wish it was. This is a common thought that arises when someone meets our child. We thought that for awhile. We thought she wasn't trying hard enough. Everything she told us was confirmed in testing. No she is not there yet. We were told her high intelligence makes her appear to be very smart and it is until she starts having to perform academically that things fall apart. Her giftedness is currently masking her learning disability, but as in her dad's case, the farther he got in school the more his learning disabilities became apparent. Because he had done so well in years past it was written off as his not trying hard enough and he would grow out of it. He went from GATE classes to gen ed, to alternative classes. He is truly a smart man, but he has been somewhat successful even though things still plague him.

Our daughter truly spends 2 -3x as long trying to complete work. Our son is also brilliant, takes 2x as long to complete work, but no issues with reading, memory and in other areas. He refuses meds for what we fell is ADD. We saw the path our daughter was being sent down, lower groups, she was bored, hated school, feared she would give up altogether. Proved to new school she doesn't do well on standard test due to anxiety and processing, could do advanced math, albiet slow, and fought to move her up. Therapist insisted we do it. Daughter is so much happier, more challenged.

Our daughter reads books from grade 1 -2 for book reports or does them from an audio tape. She loves books, wants to read but gets confused.

Takes 3-5 hours of keeping her on task and working on organization when it comes to academics especially. To give her more meds to make her compliant then stymies her appetite and sleep does not come. We have switched meds several times.

She fights the help. She desperately wants to do this on her own, if she could, I know this defiant side to her will be such an asset. She is driven but gets defeated and gives up when it becomes confusing.

When her work is reviewed, mistakes abound, we discreetly highlight, she fixes. Teacher can see where she had problems but I am told teachers don't really spend much time checking the work. It is more busy work others concur but we still it was important to have her complete it.

She will only read first part of an instruction, still misses second. Still not remembering math times tables. Has more difficulties with "thinking backwards, subtraction and division"

She misreads words and substitutes, has fluency level of 2nd grader. Reading is so slow she forgets what she read. Inferrance is difficult for her.

Tutoring got her to be able to read in 3rd grade summer, very slow. 4th grade she was still only at grade 1. She has progressed but as Educational therapist (one of the best in the LA area) states she needs a multisensory multi disciplined intensive therapy to get her over the hump. 2 other private doctors and her previous tutor said the same thing after working or diagnosising her. Tutor worked on more than just reading, pretty much everything. This is why we maintain she has been remediated to a point, it needs to be completed, which after paying so much privately we have been forced to put her in public school and seek assistance in this like we did 3 years ago.

 

[dallas702]

If she is substituting words it sounds like she has been taught the "look-say" method rather than phonics. Almost all schools use a preponderance of sight reading, even though they tell parents they are also using phonics. Phonics isn't perfect but it darn sure keeps kids from looking at the word "curtain" and a picture of the curtains, and saying "drapes" because the teacher or someone used the word "drapes. If she's subbing words she is definitely not using the letter sounds and formations to figure them out. That would make reading difficult for anyone.

Have you tried any of the old phonics learning programs? Same thing for math...flash cards and rote to begin with.

 

[aspiringparent]

I am really looking for Law here, not to be rude, but to keep suggesting more ways to remediate is unproductive since we have an educational therapist hired and we know the direction to go in. We left private school because many of our private professionals from OT, Pediatrician, speech pathologist, Optometrist everyone says she will benefit from services in public school. Now if only we can get them through all the gatekeeping. I swear many say we are looked at by the district as well if you did it yourself, then you can keep paying for it yourself.

This has been ongoing and I am looking for the recent case that was cited at an RSP's due process hearing for one of her cases. She is on leave and can't go access the information.

Yes Hooked on Phonics was one of the first things I started with when BOB books didn't work in 1st grade. She has memory issues, short term doesn't stick. Flash cards, I have stacks of them, games, stacks, books on how to teach your child, stacks. We have tried Zoo Phonics with minor success. She did better because it was based on using sight, sound and tactile nature. We have done shaving cream in the tub, and so on. There is a visual compenent as well when she will read the words like "saw" for "was" or use "for" instead of "to".

Our daughter has had a high quality education at private school, with a true whole language and phonics based instruction. She had great one on one teaching. It was costing us a fortune to do private school and tutoring externally to keep her up to grade level.

She has deficits that point to dyslexia. Not a term I use. Too broad not truly clear under IDEA 04 whether or not this district would remediate. Dyslexia is recognized but we want to deal with the areas of deficit and stop spinning wheels.

Public school in CA is turning out to be a joke. They allow for late work, a fill in sheet that out of 10 questions my daughter only answered 2 and received a B. No this is not 5th grade curriculum, they are leniently grading her to keep her scores high and try to say she doesn't need services. We have many examples.

We have done many different types of remediation. The best was the tutor who worked in using a multisensory approach, similiar to Orton Gillian and Lind Mood Bell approaches. We are willing to see let the school try their method after that if it doesn't work, we are going to court for reimbursement of past remediation and for Linda Mood Bell. I was hoping it wouldn't go to this and I could state the case in our next IEP.

I have the Lillie Felton letter, are you aware of it? I just want something newer to state. Thanks.

 

[notsmartmark]

I don't know of anything newer than the Lillie/Felton OSEP policy statement. I think that put to rest the issue of higher functioning students as learning disabled, and a current due process case will not trump Lillie/Felton. I believe you are receiving faulty information if someone told you that coming into a meeting and citing a due process case will flip a district. It can, but it's not usually the case. You are better off trusting your evaluations and advocates. The district will need to discount or meet or beat them.

I think you and the district are getting ready to rumble. You will get a thousand different opinions, but the case when decided is the only one that counts. It's a close call. I think Schaffer v. Weast might help tip the scales, but its so new I haven't heard much who it's playing out in this type of case.

 

[aspiringparent]

Rumble yes I guess we are on procedural errors and their dragging this out as well as not using appropriate tests for the concerns stated, as well as several FERPA violations. We requested again and again to have names of tests so our therapist and I could see they were testing for the concerns stated at the intake.

I told school psych pointedly I wanted testing names so we could check and add a test to avoid extensive testing. I wrote asking several times for a list. Her first verbal response was, "she wasn't comfortable with that" What not giving me a list? I told her for my child's sake it wasn't good to drag this out. She assured me that would not happen, well for an IEP due at the end November not to occur till just this week. The list came in a letter responded to a month ago after filing a compliance complaint.

Plain and simple, our child does not read 5th grade level books, nor does written expression meet CA state curriculum standards. We have written expression redone privately.

Their diagnosis is one of ED and ridiculous goals to remediate spelling to grade level 3 by 6th grade.

I think our child fits the category for Dyslexia but I know some districts see this as a medica condition, others not. I just want to focus on the individual items concerning writing, reading and spelling.

Are you a SPecial Ed attorney, how do you see it with the scores I sent over?

 

[notsmartmark]

I am not an education lawyer. I develop special education management systems and have focused on sped law as primary job duty for the 15 years.

You can and might get varied advice, but I do think you have a potential fatal flaw with your case for current services and reimbursement. With all of the evaluation that has been conducted, it will probably be argued, especially for reimbursement, that your child did not present a concern, and the district was handed the argument with your 7/04 academic assessment. Your child demonstrated academic scores that were within severe discrepancy of the IQ scores you provided. The reading, math and written language standard scores indicate that your child was learning with expected rates.

The school will use this information to try to block your claim for reimbursement. I also think they are going to use these scores to claim that your child doesn_t currently require specialized instruction. This is probably why they didn_t redo the academic testing, which is unusual. The district doesn_t want to test and get lowered scores.

If you go to do process, they are going to use those scores as a basis of their case. They will probably indicate that your child might be having foundational issues with her reading, those 0/04 academic scores indicate that she has, almost 2 years ago, expected rates of learning.

What you do have going for you is that district typically do not what to go to due process for current services, reimbursement is a different story. My guess is that they think you are going to take them for the reimbursement, and they are willing to fight the whole thing. I would guess they would drop the fight for current services if they thought due process was off of the table.

 

[aspiringparent]

Thanks notsomark. I kind of understand this. But I don't understand why there are cases that have ruled in the favor of the parents because the school district had a duty to remediate but didn't or dragged it out.

The RSP says there is still a discrepancy btwn the PCI and working memory. The Wisc1v and woodcox do not show all the reading scores but a language processing discrepancy of about -26 now it is .20 - .21 with remediation. It shows it has been working. We are being penalized for not letting this very smart child drift for two - three years.

We asked for a FULL evaluation from the district in 03. We brought 3 letters from child's doctors saying there was a processing disorder somewhere. How is it the school could have ignored it , and only gotten away with literally "watching" child in a class for 20 minutes and determined everything was fine? I wrote and asked him that, and on the advice of an advocate said we would bring her to public school since he said that would be the best place for her in the meeting. No response, which is typical in this district.

We can prove our child was in crisis mode and we didn't have time to pursue an IEE for the appropriate testing. Frankly I really didn't understand the whole rights and responsibility brochure. I am dyslexic and this child was profoundly freaking out, in second grade!.

I wrote the letter asking them to reconsider and test her if we would put her in public school. When no response came, I had a child that was going into her 7 month of anxiety and needed to find her specific medical help. This affected her in all areas of her life by then. That in itself took till june, doctors versed in children with anxiety are hard to come by.

We want reimbursement for having to drive an hour away to the dr who has been instrumental at getting our child out of crisis mode. There was no testing done by the district at all. Had she been appropriately tested (and isn't that the law?) at that time the discrepancy could have been much higher.

There also needed to be tests like GORT, CTOPP, etc, more specific tests for the specific areas of concern about her reading.

I also question the trouble with her new WISC-1v being lower after a 1.5 years, that shows a problem. Her educational therapist says you don't get dumber unless there is a processing issue and you are not grasping the concepts. The child should have had a higher WISC-1V this year.

This district has a history with us saying everything is fine, then letting us seek private testing which says otherwise, and pay privately for services we would have brought her to public school for. We can't seek reimbursement for SPeech now that the law has gone from 3 to 2 years but it still goes to history the district has "gatekept" our child. I even have a document from the head of special ed even saying as of this year they will do less evaluations for private school children as a cost cutting measure. No other district around here has a history like ours at refusing to evaluate private school children.

Yes we sent a letter in 2003 after the school psych said in the SST meeting after producing documents stating child had a progressive hearing loss and 3 different doctors said they felt further testing for processing issues were necessary. I want reimbursement since the 04 scores came after the remediation had been ongoing, after ignoring the denial for further testing. The district claims they have destroyed those records, before 3 years and without PWN asking us if we wanted to have them. I think they are operating on the basis they knew they blew it. They have gone to their lawyers who told them, get rid of the evidence. I have the original letters and requests detailing.

It is hard to put out thousands of dollars for a lawyer when we may be reimbursed for it and we get some services, and yet it will cost several thousands of dollars privately to remediate our child if we don't get a lawyer.

I am fed up and disgusted with this district and the whole notion of no child left behind. If we take our child off all meds, pull all intervention to let her go back to the performance and freaking out she was experiencing starting in 02 at what cost to her health? This district is on a power trip, I just want our child to get help. We can prove she can't fully access the curriculum, tests were coerced, their testing does not accurately reflect what we knew and stated were a concern. The Lyons testing in the class is not a standardized test and it is says our child is below benchmark. The KTEA totally skipped the reading fluency subtest, why?

The district here is smug and knows they are backing us into a corner with this type of dilemna. I am ready to expose them to the media, yank my kid to homeschool put out the money for the expensive reading program she needs then sue them for reimbursement.

Is is true a lawyers fees can not be covered if you settle out of court? If we go to mediation, but get a lawyer so we quit wasting more time, our child is entering middle school next year, this is a long battle remember, do we have any recourse to ask for reimbursement for tutoring, services, along with lawyer fees or not? Is it only if we hire a lawyer and go with due process and take them to court?

 

[notsmartmark]

First, I don’t have access to the file. So, please listen to your advisors, and listen to others, and go back and ask your advisors more questions. Just as some parents state schools are not providing the necessary services, there are schools that will point out advocates are need to have conflict to have a job. Both statements have some truth, just weigh everything and understand the individual’s points of view.

Here are some of MY responses to some of your questions. Please remember these are my views. Check with others.

Reimbursement: Only through Due Process or through a Court can you be reimbursed. I think this is a stretch. The district will demonstrate that they considered your ’03 request. If they win this point (or even get a push), your reimbursement case is in trouble. Your statement about time and an IEE will be troublesome for you, as will the, “I didn’t understand the Procedural Safeguards” will probably not fly. I also think the few points on the IQ tests do not reach significance. If you are hanging much on this statement about the difference, please get another opinion.

These statements might be considered given the context and sheer volume. I try to think of in White and Black hats. Either side will be able to place a few black hats on the other party. The problem comes when the other party seems to enjoying wearing the black hats or has such a huge black hats that it cannot be ignored.

I do think you have a better case for current services, i.e., potentially language and maybe reading, than you do for reimbursement. But I also think you could lose on all fronts. I do not think you have a slam dunk case. I think that’s apparent with the district’s response.

Best of luck.