Not a DUI yet

[t74]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? OK

This is not a DUI problem yet.

Is there anything that can be done about a bar that regularly serves an intoxicated person (arrives sober and may be served between 8 to 15 drinks in an evening). The person generally has someone take him home or calls a family member to pick him up and does not (hopefully) drive while intoxicated. The person is given very limited funds (for food and cigarettes), but the bar runs a tab (it probably is padded quite a bit since it can be several hundreds of dollars in just a couple of nights) and collects when he has money. The person is also mentally ill with a serious physical medical problem and unemployed with very limited funds for living expenses; his financial and health situations are known to the bar owners. He has been voluntarily hospitalized for mental health issues.

Please suggest what the best course of action is. It is expected that the person would commit suicide if jailed.

 

[Proserpina]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? OK

This is not a DUI problem yet.

Is there anything that can be done about a bar that regularly serves an intoxicated person (arrives sober and may be served between 8 to 15 drinks in an evening). The person generally has someone take him home or calls a family member to pick him up and does not (hopefully) drive while intoxicated. The person is given very limited funds (for food and cigarettes), but the bar runs a tab (it probably is padded quite a bit since it can be several hundreds of dollars in just a couple of nights) and collects when he has money. The person is also mentally ill with a serious physical medical problem and unemployed with very limited funds for living expenses; his financial and health situations are known to the bar owners. He has been voluntarily hospitalized for mental health issues.

Please suggest what the best course of action is. It is expected that the person would commit suicide if jailed.

Why is it your business?

He's allowed to basically drink himself to death.

 

[HighwayMan]

(it probably is padded quite a bit since it can be several hundreds of dollars in just a couple of nights)

Padded? Do you know what alcoholic drinks cost? You said 8 to 15 drinks a night. It is not hard to run up a bill of "several hundred dollars" if that's the case.

 

[Ohiogal]

What is the name of your state (only U.S. law)? OK

This is not a DUI problem yet.

Is there anything that can be done about a bar that regularly serves an intoxicated person (arrives sober and may be served between 8 to 15 drinks in an evening). The person generally has someone take him home or calls a family member to pick him up and does not (hopefully) drive while intoxicated. The person is given very limited funds (for food and cigarettes), but the bar runs a tab (it probably is padded quite a bit since it can be several hundreds of dollars in just a couple of nights) and collects when he has money. The person is also mentally ill with a serious physical medical problem and unemployed with very limited funds for living expenses; his financial and health situations are known to the bar owners. He has been voluntarily hospitalized for mental health issues.

Please suggest what the best course of action is. It is expected that the person would commit suicide if jailed.

You want a legal solution? Apply for guardianship of this individual so that you can be in control of him as though he is a child. You seem to want to blame the bar however what role does this ADULT have in his own actions? is it possible the bar could be sued? Yes -- if the drunk person were to kill or injure someone.

 

[HighwayMan]

Check your state laws - it's possible that it is illegal to serve alcohol to a visibly intoxicated individual.

 

[Proserpina]

Indeed. Oklahoma still uses the "dram shop" laws.

I do not believe anything will come of this though.

Except the owner banning the OP for life.

8 shots in a evening? I'd be tipsy at worst.

15 beers? Same.

Intoxication is a funny old thing.

 

[CdwJava]

While 8 shots or 15 beers over a few hours is often sufficient to make one too impaired to operate a motor vehicle safely, many people may not appear sufficiently inebriated for a bartender to stop serving them. Remember, drunks spend more money because they tend to pick up the pace and they sometimes buy others drinks as well. They are good customers. Many bartenders will simply rely on their outward appearance to try and protect themselves from liability rather than recalling the fact that they have actually served the person 15 drinks and they should be - by any objective standard - "wasted."

You can speak to the local police and see if they are aware that this bar is furnishing drinks to inebriated people ... contact any local alcohol regulatory agency ... perhaps even the local city that licenses such businesses and complain. But, enhanced attention might result in an arrest for your friend if he is driving while impaired, or drunk in public. But, it might save his life, too. Dying a slow death from alcohol poisoning and the damage done by pickling your innards is a miserable way to go and I have seen it happen far too often in my career.

 

[t74]

The owners and servers know this person well and also the fact that he has been hospitalized multiple times for depression. Servers there have been known to drive him home in the past. Last night they left him alone and semi-coherent on their doorstep at closing (the neighborhood can be dangerous as there has been a shooting in the parking lot this year). I have previously discussed his financial situation with one of the bar owners when they allowed him to run a tab and then wanted immediate payment. At one point they claimed his tab exceeded $2,000 but never provided any proof of charges - obviously not for one night. They never apparently give any documentation just charge to his card since they have it on file from previous uses.

Drinks are $4 and shots are $5 so spending nearly $200 in 4 - 5 hours is a lot of either.

It is illegal to serve an intoxicated person in this state. The bar can be sued in the event of an accident; it would be easy to document who served the liquor since payment is coming from a bank card.

The bar has been investigated several times for complaints by the alcoholic beverage control as it is recorded in the database. They type of complaint is not listed.

I do not think the bar would call the police because they would be in trouble as well. The country has a mental health court which would be an option but it appears to need a referral through the criminal system.

Can one really obtain guardianship on the basis of alcohol abuse? Would admission to rehab need to be an involuntary commitment through the courts if I had guardianship?

 

[CdwJava]

The owners and servers know this person well and also the fact that he has been hospitalized multiple times for depression.

None of which would likely legally obligate them NOT to serve him. Though, they are certainly free to refuse service if they chose to.

Servers there have been known to drive him home in the past. Last night they left him alone and semi-coherent on their doorstep at closing (the neighborhood can be dangerous as there has been a shooting in the parking lot this year).

Certainly a potential civil liability for the bar or the staff.

Drinks are $4 and shots are $5 so spending nearly $200 in 4 - 5 hours is a lot of either.

I have seen inebriated individuals buy rounds for the house, and allow people to buy expensive liqueurs as well as standard drinks. In a bust bar or club, you will see such charges. Though, I would tend to agree that he is probably an easy mark for the bar so they know they can take advantage of him.

It is illegal to serve an intoxicated person in this state. The bar can be sued in the event of an accident; it would be easy to document who served the liquor since payment is coming from a bank card.

And until such an event occurs, there may be little to do except to report the alleged violations to the state and local authorities.

I do not think the bar would call the police because they would be in trouble as well. The country has a mental health court which would be an option but it appears to need a referral through the criminal system.

Then he may need to be arrested for one or more alcohol-related incidents that allow his history to be presented on the record.

Can one really obtain guardianship on the basis of alcohol abuse? Would admission to rehab need to be an involuntary commitment through the courts if I had guardianship?

If he is unable to care for himself or manage his finances, that might be possible ... but, I have not looked up the laws in your state. His immediate family members might be able top consult an attorney to obtain a conservatorship of some kind - perhaps over his finances if he is drinking it away But, in my experience, this would be a long shot.

 

[cbg]

It is truly sad how many people in this country are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions and are determined to find someone else to blame for what they do.

Surely no one is taking "this person" into the bar at gunpoint and forcing him to drink? And if he's mentally, emotionally, and or medically unable to control his actions, why is no one in his family preventing him from doing so?

 

[t74]

He is not incompetent just bipolar and very depressed at this time. He might voluntarily agree to a guardianship as he has done so in the past when hospitalized.

He has few finances just what little he manages to earn on day jobs. His long time on again off again girlfriend frequents this bar as well and does nothing to discourage the behavior. His other friends also want to hang at the bar rather than some other form of entertainment like movies or bowling.

I do not know why the alcohol commission does not do more when there are a number of serious accidents and incidents that have occurred involving the employees and patrons of the bar in the building. on the parking lot and on the street in front of it.

What recourse does the bar have if they allow him to run a tab which he cannot pay and which the family refuses to? I had hoped they would refuse to serve him when he has no money, but they continue to do so and will call family to come get him and then request payment from the person who arrives. The bar owner has on more than one occasion been notified verbally that he has no funds to pay the tab; should they be notified in some other way? His cash had been strictly limited to prevent him drinking so much, and then we discovered that they would serve him even knowing he could not pay. They might stop if the bills were their responsibility, and he had to pay for every drink as it was served.

I would love if they banned him! He frequents only this one and is unlikely to find another who would allow him to drink what he does not have money for. If they had him arrested, he would likely quit going there, but they could lose their license for what they are doing.

The mental health services here are not good; years ago he was suicidal, and they refused to admit him claiming that since he did not have a plan on how he was going to kill himself, they did not believe him. This of a person who cannot tell you what he is going to have for lunch at 11:30 in the morning.

 

[cbg]

If he's not incompetent then he's responsible for his own actions. You can't have it both ways.

But since I do have some familiarity with bi-polar disorder I will grant you that he may not be making the best decisions for himself. You have still not explained why it is the responsibility of the bar and not that of his family and friends to bypass or deflect his decisions.

 

[t74]

Dealing with a mentally ill person and having them declared incompetent are two entirely different things.

We buy his food for his residence and gas. We severely limit his daily funds (he can afford burgers, sodas and not much more), but the bar will serve him anyway.

If he could not run a tab with them and had to pay for every drink at the time, he could not overindulge. The fact that the bar will continue to serve him even though they know he cannot pay the bill is the bar's contribution to the problem. Then there is the fact they serve him when he has obviously had too much which is illegal in this state. He is acting like an idiot, and the bar is acting illegally. They have had his keys and demanded payment from the person he called to take him home in order to get them back. I don't care if they sue in small claims because they would then have to bring proof of how much they have served him which could then be forwarded to the state agency. I just do not think it appropriate that they ransom his property.

I have advised them personally that he does not have the money to pay the bills they permit him to run up, but they continue to serve him and demand payment from others. Other than report them to the state agency (which I have) and get him professional help (which we have multiple times without long term success), I need some cooperation from all involved.

If I could keep him from going there, I would. The bar sees him as a source of funds. Since I cannot get either to cooperate, I am looking for suggestions as what other resources I should look into. Would an attorney be able to assist me? If so, what type should I look for?

 

[Zigner]

I know you only want what is best for your loved one, but if the man is not incompetent, then you can't force your will upon him.

 

[Proserpina]

Dealing with a mentally ill person and having them declared incompetent are two entirely different things.[/quote

But one can lead to the other.

We buy his food for his residence and gas. We severely limit his daily funds (he can afford burgers, sodas and not much more), but the bar will serve him anyway.

Okay, nothing illegal there.

If he could not run a tab with them and had to pay for every drink at the time, he could not overindulge.

Oh yes, yes he could. Believe me, he could.

The fact that the bar will continue to serve him even though they know he cannot pay the bill is the bar's contribution to the problem. Then there is the fact they serve him when he has obviously had too much which is illegal in this state.

I doubt they're doing anything illegal.

He is acting like an idiot, and the bar is acting illegally.

Being an idiot does not equate to any wrongdoing by the bar. Obviously...

They have had his keys and demanded payment from the person he called to take him home in order to get them back. I don't care if they sue in small claims because they would then have to bring proof of how much they have served him which could then be forwarded to the state agency. I just do not think it appropriate that they ransom his property.

Not really a legal problem.

I have advised them personally that he does not have the money to pay the bills they permit him to run up, but they continue to serve him and demand payment from others. Other than report them to the state agency (which I have) and get him professional help (which we have multiple times without long term success), I need some cooperation from all involved.

Forcing him isn't going to work long term unless he actually WANTS help.

If I could keep him from going there, I would. The bar sees him as a source of funds
Since I cannot get either to cooperate, I am looking for suggestions as what other resources I should look into. Would an attorney be able to assist me? If so, what type should I look for?

I'm going to be as gentle as I can here, okay? You're already in defensive mode and what I'm about to say isn't going to help that part.

Okay.

The elephant in the room is that he's an alcoholic and he doesn't want to change. This is the real root of the problem. It's not the bar's fault, and if the bar disappeared overnight it would still not fix the problem. He's just going to find the next place to hang out, or the next group of drinkers to make friends with. He might have to resort to theft to pay his way. He might choose a bridge with other homeless people.

But he's an alcoholic, and he's not going to change until he chooses to do so. That's the nature of alcoholism - no forced treatment will help long term unless he wants to change. The rest really doesn't matter, except that blaming the bar just isn't going to help you at all.

There are many support groups for you and your family. This is a massive issue and your family is going to, at some point, face the possibility (or probability depending on your point of view) that it is going to come down to this: Him, or Family.

Why do I know this? Well, last July I had to make a choice...life, or death within about 6 weeks if I carried on the same way I was going. I'm the elephant in the room. I'm a month short of my 1 year sobriety mark and without wanting to bore you or anybody else, I'm currently in that holding pattern of "Okay, good, no transplant needed yet", and that's going to be pretty much constant for the rest of my (markedly shorter) life. I screwed myself, and my family. Nobody else's fault - it's all mine.

If you'd like to PM, just let me know and I'll change the settings. Heck, if you just want to call me out on what I've said, go right ahead here or there. I wouldn't blame you for being angry and upset and frustrated. If anything you're recognizing that there is a problem and as cliched as it sounds, it's the truth.

Deal?